Sick of planes in TANK realistic battles.

[Obamenau]

Honestly i dont care anymore when people say it adds immersion and depth, they are soo f*cking annoying to me anymore. So I decided whilst playing russian tier 4 gf to count a bit. Of 5 out of 10 games i died due to a plane, in some games even several times. In every one of those games i already had 2 kills and was in a good position to get more. But Guess what a dude that died earlier gets a free kill because he has a plane.
Im estimating that about 40% of my deaths in russian tier 4 tanks can be contributed to planes.
As someone who loves fair gameplay i absolutely hate that im nothing but a sitting duck to a plane and it really only comes down to the pilots skills if he kills me or not.

People defending planes usually bring up their counters. Well lets look into them:

SPAA:
These certainly are effective against ground pounders, however you have to research an entire separate techtree just to get them. Also shooting down planes is not easy and you have to learn it. Experienced players are also quite good at avoiding and dodging AA fire.
Lastly even SPAA turns into easy kills once there is a sufficient air presence, especially
when its British or US plane spam.

Using your own planes:
Here is where my real issue with the current system lies at. WHY DO I HAVE TO OWN AND KNOW HOW TO FLY PLANES WHEN IM PLAYING TANKS? Seriously i hear people saying "well just bring your own plane and shoot them down". Guess what i dont f*cking want to because im playing Tank battles.

Meanwhile aviation players dont ever have to play something that cant fly. Why is it that pilots get a safespace whilst tankers are forced to deal with planes they have litle defence against on their own??
In the end this turned to a bit more ranty than I'd like to, my apologies. However there is only a single thing i want: a gamemode where i dont have to worry about randomly getting killed from the sky. Players who already have planes are going to play combined forces anyway so it wouldnt make the current gamemode pointles.

[Manfred]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mindstream:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από LayLow:

how about another one of your quotes, "ffs stop whining",relocate after a kill,and use cover and concealment.

Looking through my posts are ya? Well im humbled, but context matters my friend. Would you be so kind to put the entire post here?

dont flatter yourself ;) i just read the pantherII thread.

[Manfred]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mindstream:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από LayLow:

dont flatter yourself ;) i just read the pantherII thread.

Well then your 'argument' holds no ground as i was talking about tank vs tank combat there.

lol , ffs stop whining,relocate after a kill,and use cover and concealment.planes are not going anywhere.
better?

[Obamenau]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από LayLow:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mindstream:

Looking through my posts are ya? Well im humbled, but context matters my friend. Would you be so kind to put the entire post here?

dont flatter yourself ;) i just read the pantherII thread.

Then why did you edit my comment which thing i didnt say? I couldnt remember writing those words.

Anyway your 'argument' holds no ground as i was talking about tank vs tank combat there.

[Manfred]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mindstream:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από LayLow:

dont flatter yourself ;) i just read the pantherII thread.

Then why did you edit my comment which thing i didnt say? I couldnt remember writing those words.

Anyway your 'argument' holds no ground as i was talking about tank vs tank combat there.

i didnt edit anything.

[Obamenau]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από LayLow:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mindstream:

Then why did you edit my comment which thing i didnt say? I couldnt remember writing those words.

Anyway your 'argument' holds no ground as i was talking about tank vs tank combat there.

i didnt edit anything.

My fault i thought you meant the entire sentence with "my quote".

But lets end the pointless arguing here and return ontopic. Im picking up a mild scent of an incoming lock.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 1k mmr adventures☢:

uninstall and GTFO, go play WOT instead.

If youre incapable of providing valuable feedback then i politely ask you to leave this thread.

[babyseal]

"uninstall and GTFO, go play WOT instead."

Which exactly what I did. Better game in a lot ways, worse in others. But no dying repeatedly from kamikazis, and the matches aren't determined by airplanes.

[Scion of Decay]

Hey
Get good

[babyseal]

"Hey
Get good"

Hey, nah. Not worth any more of my time or money.

[Sethbag]

Getting good only gets you so far. Getting good in the ZIS-43 isn't going to save you when a Firefly and three P-47s all hit you at once with rockets, bombs, and strafing runs that themselves will kill you nearly instantly.

I'm actually getting pretty good in the ZIS-43, and racking up some nice plane kills, yet my ZIS-43 is still dying to planes probably two or three times for every plane I kill.

Typical scenario: enemies get their first kill, bail out, show up in force with P-47s and Fireflies, P-51s, whatever. I'm still alive in my first tank, and am unwilling to bail out in order to jump into my SPAA immediately. Oh well, the planes just bombed me, or rocketed me, whatever, but in any case I'm dead. So I up my ZIS-43 AA truck. I see an insanely fast Firefly diving on a teammate of mine and killing him with near misses of his rockets, so I start traversing my slow-moving 37mm gun over to that Firefly. I start firing at the Firefly, and score one hit that starts him smoking but doesn't kill him. Boom, I'm dead. Where'd that come from? Oh yeah, a P-47 just rocketed me from behind. His rockets only landed near me, didn't actually hit me, but it doesn't matter, I'm still dead.

Scenario two: I up my SPAA, the Fireflies and P-47s show up. I start tracking a P-47 with my gun, start firing at him. Managing to keep 360 degree situational awareness somehow while also firing at this plane, I realize a Firefly has turned towards me and started a diving run. I try to traverse my 37mm gun around to defend myself, but it's slow, and it's not even pointing in his direction when the rockets kill me.

Scenario three: I see a Firefly turn towards me, and begin traversing my gun in his direction. He flies straight over me then begins a near-vertical dive on me. My 37mm gun has a hard time pointing straight up, and does wierd things as it has to try to adjust to follow him. The plane does a couple of odd jukes, avoiding my rounds, then lines up and fires rockets or a short burst of cannon fire and I'm dead.

Scenario four: A P-47 takes a direct hit from my 37mm HE round and begins smoking but is still alives, turns around, drops bombs on me which I cannot possibly avoid. I'm dead. He flies back to base, repairs, and comes back to kill more teammates. Meanwhile I'm dead, I only have this one gun truck in my lineup, so there's nothing I can do about it but try not to be noticed by him in one of my other tanks.

The bottom line is that at this tier the SPAA vs. plane fight is stupidly one-sided. For each plane I kill with my ZIS-43, and I kill planes with it quite often, those planes have probably already killed 2 or 3 of my teammates. For each plane I kill with my ZIS-43, I've probably already been killed twice before I could even get a shot off, by rockets, or bombs, or strafing runs with 8x.50 cal machine guns or 20mm cannons that just destroy my crew instantly.

The 37mm HE rounds should be nearly guaranteed 1-shot kills against any fighter. The HE filler alone will blow a pretty large hole in whatever structure it hits, and the fragments will tear through that structure and whatever else is nearby. I don't think the damage of these shells against thin-skinned fighters pulling massive Gs in their zooming attacks is well modeled in this game.

In many ground games now it's just a race to see who gets some kills in their first tanks, then bail out, then come back in massively OP fighter-bombers to kill 2-4 more tanks each with bombs and rockets. These plane attacks very often turn a whole battle into a lopsided affair, and upping an SPAA only rarely puts a stop to it. The SPAA itself simply isn't enough of a counter to two or three P-47s and Fireflies showing up with massive rocket and bomb loads that don't even need to get hits to destroy even the heaviest of tanks.

The only effective counter to the ground-raping fighter bomber scourge is if at the exact same time my side has pilots bailing out of their first tank to up pure fighters to shoot the other guys down. And the only guys who are effective at this are people who also spend a lot of time in War Thunder airplane battles. I haven't spent much time in pure airplane fights because I'm more into tanks, so if I show up in my rank 1 crapco fighter I'm totally ineffective.

Is my only choice in these tank battles to go spend months in the airplane battles side of Warthunder, so that I build up current-rank fighters that I can include in my tank lineup, and the skills necessary to fight effectively? If so, that's crap.

SPAA needs to be more of a counter to the air scourge. I actually put the time in a few months ago to earn the Kugelblitz. Now they've moved that to a higher tier and I can't play it anymore (I don't have any other tanks at that tier, and if I put it into my lineup I'll just get pulled into higher tiers with too-low level tanks). For some dumb reason the Russian 37mm AA tankette is a rank higher than it should be, so at the same tier the enemies are flying around with these fast armories of bombs, rockets, and devastating machine gun and cannon armaments, I'm stuck with a slow-moving, slow-turning armored truck that isn't proof against any kind of enemy fire at all, with a slow-firing, always-reloading 37mm gun that traverses slowly, elevates slowly, and whose HE rounds will only 1-shot kill an enemy fighter maybe 20-30% of the time you manage to get a hit.

I'm not opposed to there being fighter bombers in these tank matches. I just think that in certain tiers at least it's totally unbalanced, and the airplanes become a scourge to the game. When one or two good fighter jocks on the opposing team can bail out as soon as they have their first kill, come back in massively OP fighter bombers and carry the whole match by knocking two or three players each from my team out of the match, that's unbalanced.

And once again: when fighter bombers have absolutely no fear about diving straight into an SPAA that's actually aiming at them and firing at them, there's a balance problem. Fighters should have a genuine fear of SPAA. When SPAA are considered easy kills to a fighter bomber, there's a problem.

Oh: one quick solution that should be made ASAP, which would have a positive effect on things, is to eliminate the time fuzes on bombs. It's totally stupid that fighter bombers can drop a 1000 lb. bomb with a 2-second timer from an altitude of like 20 or 30 feet onto a tank, where they are guaranteed to either hit it or place it right next to a tank, and not have it go off until the plane is a safe distance away is A) totally OP, and B) totally unrealistic. This is only a strat that is viable in a game. Not saying that time fuzes didn't exist in real life, but you would never have seen real fighter bombers dropping bombs on tanks like this from 20 feet altitude in real life. When a strat like this totally games the system and is way OP, it should be changed. Put the "realistic" back in "realistic" matches.

[Sethbag]

Ok this just happened:

F6F flies in to bomb my team. I hit him with a 37mm HE round from my ZIS-43. It's a critical hit, and he's smoking. He flies off, turns around, and comes back for more. I hit him again. It's just a normal hit this time. He's still smoking. He turns over and is flying straight at me. A neighboring SPAA of ours is firing at him, he starts to break up and crashes like 30 feet behind me. I got an assist. AN ASSIST, on an F6F that had already taken two of my 37mm HE rounds. That means that two of these hits weren't enough, and it took at least a third hit from whatever my neighbor was shooting to finally get a killshot on this F6F. That's just insane. Meanwhile, this F6F could have dropped a 500 or 1000 lb bomb 50 feet away from me and got a guaranteed kill, or fired rockets into the ground 20 or 30 feet away from me and gotten a guaranteed kill.

This is what I mean when I say the SPAA to plane balance, at least in Tier 3/4 battles, is so out of whack. There is no F6F on the planet that should have taken two 37mm HE shell direct hits and survived. It shouldn't have survived the first one for God's sake, but to survive two is just complete BS. Oh, and I just narrowly survived not getting killed by his flaming wreck falling on me. I'd bet if he'd fallen just 10 or 15 feet closer I'd have been dead to a flaming fighter wreck that should have crashed somewhere else a minute previous after my first 37mm HE round hit him.

But hey, I know what people will say: "git gud." I already got "gud" enough to hit this stupid plane twice with this POS gun truck, but no. Not "gud" enough I suppose. I should have hit him three times.

[Sethbag]

If they want to leave the time fuzes, they should implement the game mechanic where bombs can skip off the ground. If you want to drop a bomb at 300 mph while buzzing 20 feet over a tank, that's fine, but that bomb will be oriented horizontally still when it hits the ground, and it would almost certainly skip off the ground, particularly if it struck a hard surface like concrete, and keep flying, bouncing and skipping off the ground until it finally blew up 2 seconds later a couple hundred yards from where it was dropped. The combination of time fuzes with magic super-glue bombs that stick exactly where they impact the ground no matter what angle and with what speed they hit creates a totally stupid, OP game strat that people can abuse to get easy tank kills in ways that would never have worked in real life.

[Foxtrot39]

Thing is there is a need of tank chassis based AA wich aren't as sensitive to any explosion like unarmored trucks are

Remeber my early days as AA in the german tree, constant death by lazy kamikaze ram attacks

[Doe_36]

well why dont you step up to simulation tank battles ? its harder for tanks to be seen by aircraft in sim because theres no 3rd person view , i dont get why a tank player would want to play any thing but sim tank battles

[Max Headroom]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mirage:

Average RB experience:
Doing good, making kills.
Someone gets mad, knows exactly where you are, gets a plane, kills you.

Much fun, such wow.

Being forced to spawn AA is a win for the other team already anyways.

I'm sorry, but I read this and immediately assumed you're in some obscure corner of the map, hulled down to where nobody has a snowflake's chance in hell of penning you. So yes, I'd totally spawn in a plane just to 'ruin your fun' as you put it. Cause it's not fun spawning, turning a corner to be pummled by a guy you or your team can't touch.

See? That argument works both ways. Much fun, such wow.

[Dr. Sinclair]

can people stop complaining about this and realize they're playing war thunder and not world of tanks?