I've been thinking about the M60A1(AOS)

[Kwoh]

Last time, fortunately I had a civil argument on the BR of the T-44, and I was mistaken. It's a good tank at 6.3.

But what is the M60A1(AOS) doing at 8.3?
Why gaijin thinks the T-55AM-1 and the M60A1(AOS) are the same?
The british have a more versatile tank, with the same gun, also stabilized, with a more reliable armor (debatable) than the M60A1, and that's at 7.7 (Centurion mk. 10)

While the M60 only has APDS and HEAT-FS, the T-55 has a better mobility, APFSDS, composite armor, and a stabilizer.
What makes the M60 go to 8.3? Just because of the stabilizer?

And the T-55AM-1 defenders dont come bs me with "the T-55 apfsds is bad" cause that ♥♥♥♥ still have a better angle pen than the 105 APDS.

Why is the M60A1(AOS) not in at least 8.0?

[Dozz]

i think the T-55 was bad at where it was IN AN UPTIER, but not as a whole, and comparing the M60 to anything, its worse, the M60A1 is just a bad tank cause if you move it down, its "OP bro" and if it stays, its bad

[LagginToast]

If the M60A1 (A0S) actually had a APFSDS round, it would definitely be perfect for 8.3. But now its just a slow tank with only APDS and HEAT-FS as its main rounds, it could go to 8.0 because the only improvement from the 7.7 M60 is the stabilizer and more angled pen on that APDS.

[11hunter22]

Both M60A1(AOS) and M48A2 G A2 should go down.
Right now you could choose between stab + HEATFS or no stab + ADFSDS (DM 23). (Personally, I'd prefer the more reliable DM 23 round )

Yet both are outclassed by fully stabilized T55A / T62 (first shot advantage) or tanks that come with free thermals and are more mobile (AMX 30 B2).

[Kwoh]

Originally posted by Insane_Canadian:

i think the T-55 was bad at where it was IN AN UPTIER, but not as a whole, and comparing the M60 to anything, its worse, the M60A1 is just a bad tank cause if you move it down, its "OP bro" and if it stays, its bad

The normal M60 is not op at it's br, so I don't believe making the stabilized one OP
No other reason to make it 8.3 other than making the tech tree bad so people buy the premiums, since it's a major nation.

[TaxEvadingDonut]

It's got more front plate armor, better angled turret, and a stabilizer. That's about it that makes it 8.3. I wouldn't mind a BR change to 8.0. It's a good looking tank but it's overall hot garbage at 8.3. I would rather have a buff by giving it smoke grenades and gen 1 or gen 2 thermals.

[Kwoh]

Originally posted by 🖕🏻🖕🏼🖕🏽🖕🏾:

It's got more front plate armor, better angled turret, and a stabilizer. That's about it that makes it 8.3. I wouldn't mind a BR change to 8.0. It's a good looking tank but it's overall hot garbage at 8.3. I would rather have a buff by giving it smoke grenades and gen 1 or gen 2 thermals.

The upper front plate is disabled by almost anything in its br range, maybe not by a old solid AP. and it's turret is nothing to rely on. I can rely on the upper front plate and manlet of the Cent mk 10 at 7.7 but cant on anything with the M60 at 8.3

[Kay]

Originally posted by Kwoh:

But what is the M60A1(AOS) doing at 8.3?
Why gaijin thinks the T-55AM-1 and the M60A1(AOS) are the same?
The british have a more versatile tank, with the same gun, also stabilized, with a more reliable armor (debatable) than the M60A1, and that's at 7.7 (Centurion mk. 10)

The Centurion is worse in pretty much every way.

Less armour that's less angled, more cramped interior, no access to HEAT-FS, worse mobility.

Originally posted by Kwoh:

Originally posted by 🖕🏻🖕🏼🖕🏽🖕🏾:

It's got more front plate armor, better angled turret, and a stabilizer. That's about it that makes it 8.3. I wouldn't mind a BR change to 8.0. It's a good looking tank but it's overall hot garbage at 8.3. I would rather have a buff by giving it smoke grenades and gen 1 or gen 2 thermals.

The upper front plate is disabled by almost anything in its br range, maybe not by a old solid AP. and it's turret is nothing to rely on. I can rely on the upper front plate and manlet of the Cent mk 10 at 7.7 but cant on anything with the M60 at 8.3

So what you're saying is that slightly worse armour at a lower BR is better than better armour at a higher BR, not that the Centurion is better armoured.

[Kwoh]

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

Originally posted by Kwoh:

But what is the M60A1(AOS) doing at 8.3?
Why gaijin thinks the T-55AM-1 and the M60A1(AOS) are the same?
The british have a more versatile tank, with the same gun, also stabilized, with a more reliable armor (debatable) than the M60A1, and that's at 7.7 (Centurion mk. 10)

The Centurion is worse in pretty much every way.

Less armour that's less angled, more cramped interior, no access to HEAT-FS, worse mobility.

Originally posted by Kwoh:

The upper front plate is disabled by almost anything in its br range, maybe not by a old solid AP. and it's turret is nothing to rely on. I can rely on the upper front plate and manlet of the Cent mk 10 at 7.7 but cant on anything with the M60 at 8.3

So what you're saying is that slightly worse armour at a lower BR is better than better armour at a higher BR, not that the Centurion is better armoured.

I take APDS over HEAT-FS all day. Mainly If I have a stab.
And of course the better armor at 7.7, being that the M60 has NO ARMOR at 8.3. It cant even bounce it's own APDS, even less heat, even less APFSDS

[Kay]

Originally posted by Kwoh:

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

The Centurion is worse in pretty much every way.

Less armour that's less angled, more cramped interior, no access to HEAT-FS, worse mobility.



So what you're saying is that slightly worse armour at a lower BR is better than better armour at a higher BR, not that the Centurion is better armoured.

I take APDS over HEAT-FS all day. Mainly If I have a stab.

Less penetration, worse angle modifiers, less post penetration damage in most cases, HEAT-FS is the better round type until APFSDS becomes available.

Originally posted by Kwoh:

And of course the better armor at 7.7, being that the M60 has NO ARMOR at 8.3. It cant even bounce it's own APDS, even less heat, even less APFSDS

And the Centurion would have EVEN LESS armour at 8.3

If the M60 was at 7.7 it would have bounce more shots than the Centurion. It has better armour.

So, better armour, access to more rounds, better mobility, no wonder it's a higher BR.

[Kwoh]

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

Originally posted by Kwoh:

I take APDS over HEAT-FS all day. Mainly If I have a stab.

Less penetration, worse angle modifiers, less post penetration damage in most cases, HEAT-FS is the better round type until APFSDS becomes available.

Originally posted by Kwoh:

And of course the better armor at 7.7, being that the M60 has NO ARMOR at 8.3. It cant even bounce it's own APDS, even less heat, even less APFSDS

And the Centurion would have EVEN LESS armour at 8.3

If the M60 was at 7.7 it would have bounce more shots than the Centurion. It has better armour.

So, better armour, access to more rounds, better mobility, no wonder it's a higher BR.

If you read some change logs recently, APDS for calibers above 100mm had the spalling increased. Which I see that the APDS has post pen and better ballistic velocity over HEAT-FS.
I changed from HEAT to APDS on my Megach.
at 8.3 it's rare the occasions you would even need 400mm of armor pen. Save exceptions for example, the 8.7 Obj 279.

And I still fail to see where does the M60 has any significant armor.

HEAT-FS doesnt make the M60 deserve a 8.3 BR increase. Could have been 8.0

[Kay]

Originally posted by Kwoh:

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

Less penetration, worse angle modifiers, less post penetration damage in most cases, HEAT-FS is the better round type until APFSDS becomes available.



And the Centurion would have EVEN LESS armour at 8.3

If the M60 was at 7.7 it would have bounce more shots than the Centurion. It has better armour.

So, better armour, access to more rounds, better mobility, no wonder it's a higher BR.

If you read some change logs recently, APDS for calibers above 100mm had the spalling increased. Which I see that the APDS has post pen and better ballistic velocity over HEAT-FS.
I changed from HEAT to APDS on my Megach.
at 8.3 it's rare the occasions you would even need 400mm of armor pen. Save exceptions for example, the 8.7 Obj 279.

And I still fail to see where does the M60 has any significant armor.

HEAT-FS doesnt make the M60 deserve a 8.3 BR increase. Could have been 8.0

HEAT-FS and a stabiliser on an M60A1 (not the same as an M60, the turret received significant changes)

The UFP, LFP and turret are stronger than the centurion's. I don't see what you're struggling to understand here.

APDS gained some post penetration damage, it's still not reliable and still suffers from "shell shattered" even on weak armour, along with having worse angle modifiers than HEAT-FS, the increase in velocity can be nice but it also loses penetration over range while HEAT-FS does not.

at 8.3, 105mm APDS can't penetrate a fair few things, as you've already said the Obj 279 is extremely resistant to it (as is the IS-7).

again, it's also more maneuvrable than the Centurion. 8.3 doesn't seem like a terrible place for the M60A1 (AOS) however the 9.0 tanks are utter monsters compared to it, most of which shouldn't really face things below 8.7

[Kwoh]

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

Originally posted by Kwoh:

If you read some change logs recently, APDS for calibers above 100mm had the spalling increased. Which I see that the APDS has post pen and better ballistic velocity over HEAT-FS.
I changed from HEAT to APDS on my Megach.
at 8.3 it's rare the occasions you would even need 400mm of armor pen. Save exceptions for example, the 8.7 Obj 279.

And I still fail to see where does the M60 has any significant armor.

HEAT-FS doesnt make the M60 deserve a 8.3 BR increase. Could have been 8.0

HEAT-FS and a stabiliser on an M60A1 (not the same as an M60, the turret received significant changes)

The UFP, LFP and turret are stronger than the centurion's. I don't see what you're struggling to understand here.

APDS gained some post penetration damage, it's still not reliable and still suffers from "shell shattered" even on weak armour, along with having worse angle modifiers than HEAT-FS, the increase in velocity can be nice but it also loses penetration over range while HEAT-FS does not.

at 8.3, 105mm APDS can't penetrate a fair few things, as you've already said the Obj 279 is extremely resistant to it (as is the IS-7).

again, it's also more maneuvrable than the Centurion. 8.3 doesn't seem like a terrible place for the M60A1 (AOS) however the 9.0 tanks are utter monsters compared to it, most of which shouldn't really face things below 8.7

You can't really say it's more maneuverable. It's faster, because it doesn't have a low speed limit lock like the Centurion does, but, whenever I wanna change positions, relocate, reverse, the Centurion does a better job.

So okay, stabilized HEAT-FS...

... The STB uses the same gun at 7.7, and also, the same HEAT-FS.

The STB turret is way far superior to the M60, I found the Type 74G bouncing stuff at it's 9.0 BR (Considering the STB is a prototype for the Type 74), and a lot of bounces in the STB own br, for anything that isn't a modern round. I've bounced a lot of shots showing almost my full turret side.

And, you can't argue that the M60 has mobility over the STB, because the STB is way more maneuverable, way faster. "The M60 has a better gun depression" and? The pneumatic suspension on the STB does a way better job of hiding me, and giving me the gun depression when I wanna poke out. It also helps me to keep my hull protected, and If I needed, angled so I can bounce shells.

OH, and, a rather smaller tank, which I can increase even more it's height with the suspension.

While the M60 sits at 8.3
Competing with tanks that has better armor, mobility and APFSDS like the T-55AM-1

[Kay]

Originally posted by Kwoh:

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

HEAT-FS and a stabiliser on an M60A1 (not the same as an M60, the turret received significant changes)

The UFP, LFP and turret are stronger than the centurion's. I don't see what you're struggling to understand here.

APDS gained some post penetration damage, it's still not reliable and still suffers from "shell shattered" even on weak armour, along with having worse angle modifiers than HEAT-FS, the increase in velocity can be nice but it also loses penetration over range while HEAT-FS does not.

at 8.3, 105mm APDS can't penetrate a fair few things, as you've already said the Obj 279 is extremely resistant to it (as is the IS-7).

again, it's also more maneuvrable than the Centurion. 8.3 doesn't seem like a terrible place for the M60A1 (AOS) however the 9.0 tanks are utter monsters compared to it, most of which shouldn't really face things below 8.7

You can't really say it's more maneuverable. It's faster, because it doesn't have a low speed limit lock like the Centurion does, but, whenever I wanna change positions, relocate, reverse, the Centurion does a better job.

So okay, stabilized HEAT-FS...

... The STB uses the same gun at 7.7, and also, the same HEAT-FS.

The STB turret is way far superior to the M60, I found the Type 74G bouncing stuff at it's 9.0 BR (Considering the STB is a prototype for the Type 74), and a lot of bounces in the STB own br, for anything that isn't a modern round. I've bounced a lot of shots showing almost my full turret side.

And, you can't argue that the M60 has mobility over the STB, because the STB is way more maneuverable, way faster. "The M60 has a better gun depression" and? The pneumatic suspension on the STB does a way better job of hiding me, and giving me the gun depression when I wanna poke out. It also helps me to keep my hull protected, and If I needed, angled so I can bounce shells.

OH, and, a rather smaller tank, which I can increase even more it's height with the suspension.

While the M60 sits at 8.3
Competing with tanks that has better armor, mobility and APFSDS like the T-55AM-1

Oh the M60A1 shouldn't be at 8.3, but it definitely isn't comparable to the Centurion.

IMO it should be 8.0 and the STB should be moved up to 8.0, along with the 9.0 stuff not seeing anything below 8.7, that should give it a bump in performance while not shafting the Centurion and other 7.7s quite as much.

Though the main reason the STB is 7.7 (that I can tell) is because there isn't really a lineup for it, so it tends to lose 7.7 games due to the backups being poor

[Kwoh]

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

Originally posted by Kwoh:

You can't really say it's more maneuverable. It's faster, because it doesn't have a low speed limit lock like the Centurion does, but, whenever I wanna change positions, relocate, reverse, the Centurion does a better job.

So okay, stabilized HEAT-FS...

... The STB uses the same gun at 7.7, and also, the same HEAT-FS.

The STB turret is way far superior to the M60, I found the Type 74G bouncing stuff at it's 9.0 BR (Considering the STB is a prototype for the Type 74), and a lot of bounces in the STB own br, for anything that isn't a modern round. I've bounced a lot of shots showing almost my full turret side.

And, you can't argue that the M60 has mobility over the STB, because the STB is way more maneuverable, way faster. "The M60 has a better gun depression" and? The pneumatic suspension on the STB does a way better job of hiding me, and giving me the gun depression when I wanna poke out. It also helps me to keep my hull protected, and If I needed, angled so I can bounce shells.

OH, and, a rather smaller tank, which I can increase even more it's height with the suspension.

While the M60 sits at 8.3
Competing with tanks that has better armor, mobility and APFSDS like the T-55AM-1

Oh the M60A1 shouldn't be at 8.3, but it definitely isn't comparable to the Centurion.

IMO it should be 8.0 and the STB should be moved up to 8.0, along with the 9.0 stuff not seeing anything below 8.7, that should give it a bump in performance while not shafting the Centurion and other 7.7s quite as much.

Though the main reason the STB is 7.7 (that I can tell) is because there isn't really a lineup for it, so it tends to lose 7.7 games due to the backups being poor

I dunno about the STB not being 7.7
It's average at it's BR, it would be hard to balance it at 8.0 really, since the gun elevation and depression is not good if youre on the move, the mobility is on par with the Leo 1, it's complicated, but I cant tell why.

But yeah, the M60 should go to 8.0

I compared the cent since it had both the same guns and kinda the same reserved playstyle