Skip USA 5.7?

[R41D3R]

I've been playing 5.7RB for about a week now and either I'm bad (which I'm not, 5 K/D) or 5.7 is just trash for USA. I've played the M4A1(76)w and M4A2(76w) and have them fully modified, but they still don't match up against IS2's and Tiger II's. Should I skip USA 5.7 until tier 4?

[Rumpelcrutchskin]

Most of the US at that range is overtiered and should be lower BR, I rarely play US 5.7 anymore.

[R41D3R]

Originally posted by Rumpelcrutchskin:

Most of the US at that range is overtiered and should be lower BR, I rarely play US 5.7 anymore.

I usually play 3.7 USA to grind for RP and SL as it's a fairly easy BR to play for USA, 5.7 USA is just CRAZY. Facing IS2's and Tiger II's in an M4A1(76)w is just dumb.

[Rumpelcrutchskin]

Originally posted by Hoonicam:

Originally posted by Rumpelcrutchskin:

Most of the US at that range is overtiered and should be lower BR, I rarely play US 5.7 anymore.

I usually play 3.7 USA to grind for RP and SL as it's a fairly easy BR to play for USA, 5.7 USA is just CRAZY. Facing IS2's and Tiger II's in an M4A1(76)w is just dumb.

It gets better with T25 and M26, you still cant go head-on with Tiger II H but at least they are decent flankers with APCBC round that packs quite a bit of boom and usually make quick work of Tiger II P from front through turret cheek.
Super Pershing is not bad either altough it`s kinda sluggish at RB and works better in AB, at least the gun packs some more punch and can take out Tiger II H from front via turret cheek up to a certain range.

[Dakota]

Honestly don't really bother with US 5.7. Its "workable" with some of the tanks but they're massively overtiered. Like you have Sherman 76s, M36s, and T25s, at the same BR as a Panther that just does everything way better and then you get uptiered to Tiger II H's that you just can't pen on the front.

[R41D3R]

Originally posted by Dakota:

Honestly don't really bother with US 5.7. Its "workable" with some of the tanks but they're massively overtiered. Like you have Sherman 76s, M36s, and T25s, at the same BR as a Panther that just does everything way better and then you get uptiered to Tiger II H's that you just can't pen on the front.

It is POSSIBLE to pen from the front, just really hard. I hit one from the front and got his horizontal turret ring but that was the only thing I got on him before I got ammo racked by a Panther

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Hoonicam:

Originally posted by Dakota:

Honestly don't really bother with US 5.7. Its "workable" with some of the tanks but they're massively overtiered. Like you have Sherman 76s, M36s, and T25s, at the same BR as a Panther that just does everything way better and then you get uptiered to Tiger II H's that you just can't pen on the front.

It is POSSIBLE to pen from the front, just really hard. I hit one from the front and got his horizontal turret ring but that was the only thing I got on him before I got ammo racked by a Panther

With the 90mm HVAP? I think that's like the only thing that has a chance since they nerfed the 76's HVAP.

[11hunter22]

Originally posted by Dakota:

Honestly don't really bother with US 5.7. Its "workable" with some of the tanks but they're massively overtiered. Like you have Sherman 76s, M36s, and T25s, at the same BR as a Panther that just does everything way better and then you get uptiered to Tiger II H's that you just can't pen on the front.

The only tank that works reliable is the M18 as you face full uptiers 7/10 times.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by 11hunter22:

Originally posted by Dakota:

Honestly don't really bother with US 5.7. Its "workable" with some of the tanks but they're massively overtiered. Like you have Sherman 76s, M36s, and T25s, at the same BR as a Panther that just does everything way better and then you get uptiered to Tiger II H's that you just can't pen on the front.

The only tank that works reliable is the M18 as you face full uptiers 7/10 times.

Its funny how its a 4.7 tank that has been whined up to 5.7 because flanking OP when Germans have the pakpuma at 3.0 that does what it does just as good or better. Literally no armor, setup as a light tank but no scouting or arty and higher spawn cost because classed as a TD, gun handling on it is atrocious, gun is on par with 2.7 German TD guns or 3.7 US guns, has speed of a light tank.

[11hunter22]

Originally posted by Dakota:

Originally posted by 11hunter22:

The only tank that works reliable is the M18 as you face full uptiers 7/10 times.

Its funny how its a 4.7 tank that has been whined up to 5.7 because flanking OP when Germans have the pakpuma at 3.0 that does what it does just as good or better. Literally no armor, setup as a light tank but no scouting or arty and higher spawn cost because classed as a TD, gun handling on it is atrocious, gun is on par with 2.7 German TD guns or 3.7 US guns, has speed of a light tank.

Yet it's arguably the best 5.7 US tank (excluding Premiums)
Also you forgot to mention that the Puma has almost no gun wobbling whereas the m18....

[uɐɐılʎʇs]

Originally posted by Dakota:

Originally posted by 11hunter22:

The only tank that works reliable is the M18 as you face full uptiers 7/10 times.

Its funny how its a 4.7 tank that has been whined up to 5.7 because flanking OP when Germans have the pakpuma at 3.0 that does what it does just as good or better. Literally no armor, setup as a light tank but no scouting or arty and higher spawn cost because classed as a TD, gun handling on it is atrocious, gun is on par with 2.7 German TD guns or 3.7 US guns, has speed of a light tank.

Premium and event vehicles always take much longer to be balanced. Unlike other vehicles they arent used nearly as much so have far less usage stats to balance off.
For every one of the /4 you will see a multitude of the researchable variants.
The other big difference for the comparison is that a pakpuma can be taken out with .50s, something that their opponent usually has a ton of. But the rest of the comparisons still ring true.

As for the 5.7 lineup it is more then capable, they may not be OP like they once were but even in uptiers you can see regular matches where m18s or Jumbos still push right through a german team and are pretty much the sole reason for a win.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying this game has good balance on a vehicle standpoint. For the most part it works, Most vehicles still end up at a 50% winrate, some with better KDs etc but things seem balanced.

With players as generally bad as they are either with horrible lineups, no awareness, an inability to aim at weakspots and leaving after 1 death etc it is hard to actually balance by player statistics. Looking at the scoreboard at the end of a game with sometimes 3/4 of your team with multiple deaths and no kills and often not even a single assists(something needs to die to get an assist) its honestly a surprised that games end up being a fight. And its those players who also contribute to the stats that decide how some vehicles are balanced.

Now if vehicles were actually balanced with their capability and not their use then there would be even more complaining.
Compare a 4.0 ish t34 verse a PZIV.. Be at range, be patient and show some restraint/know how to aim and i doubt youll die to a t34 before you take out 10 or more(if any can get close enough).
Rush in a close quarters map and come face to face and both panic shoot, chances are youll bounce of the t34 while it pens one of your many flat pieces of armour.

Now how does a game play out, most the team rushes, you have half a team feeding Spawn points to the enemy doing stupid crap, in comes CAS(for either side) 1 side gets thinned out and your against multiple of an enemy with blind teammates that dont attempt to cover you.
Thats an average game for 1 team, or even both. Those games are contributing to how each vehicle gets its BR adjustments decided.

And yet with that being the case, i would find it hard to find many tanks that players cant get a positive KD with, or with a group that players couldnt get a positive winrate with.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by uɐɐılʎʇs:

Originally posted by Dakota:

Its funny how its a 4.7 tank that has been whined up to 5.7 because flanking OP when Germans have the pakpuma at 3.0 that does what it does just as good or better. Literally no armor, setup as a light tank but no scouting or arty and higher spawn cost because classed as a TD, gun handling on it is atrocious, gun is on par with 2.7 German TD guns or 3.7 US guns, has speed of a light tank.

Premium and event vehicles always take much longer to be balanced. Unlike other vehicles they arent used nearly as much so have far less usage stats to balance off.
For every one of the /4 you will see a multitude of the researchable variants.
The other big difference for the comparison is that a pakpuma can be taken out with .50s, something that their opponent usually has a ton of. But the rest of the comparisons still ring true.

As for the 5.7 lineup it is more then capable, they may not be OP like they once were but even in uptiers you can see regular matches where m18s or Jumbos still push right through a german team and are pretty much the sole reason for a win.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying this game has good balance on a vehicle standpoint. For the most part it works, Most vehicles still end up at a 50% winrate, some with better KDs etc but things seem balanced.

With players as generally bad as they are either with horrible lineups, no awareness, an inability to aim at weakspots and leaving after 1 death etc it is hard to actually balance by player statistics. Looking at the scoreboard at the end of a game with sometimes 3/4 of your team with multiple deaths and no kills and often not even a single assists(something needs to die to get an assist) its honestly a surprised that games end up being a fight. And its those players who also contribute to the stats that decide how some vehicles are balanced.

Now if vehicles were actually balanced with their capability and not their use then there would be even more complaining.
Compare a 4.0 ish t34 verse a PZIV.. Be at range, be patient and show some restraint/know how to aim and i doubt youll die to a t34 before you take out 10 or more(if any can get close enough).
Rush in a close quarters map and come face to face and both panic shoot, chances are youll bounce of the t34 while it pens one of your many flat pieces of armour.

Now how does a game play out, most the team rushes, you have half a team feeding Spawn points to the enemy doing stupid crap, in comes CAS(for either side) 1 side gets thinned out and your against multiple of an enemy with blind teammates that dont attempt to cover you.
Thats an average game for 1 team, or even both. Those games are contributing to how each vehicle gets its BR adjustments decided.

And yet with that being the case, i would find it hard to find many tanks that players cant get a positive KD with, or with a group that players couldnt get a positive winrate with.

Pakpuma's surprisingly good against fiddy, front resists them whereas the turret doesn't. Hellcat is similar in this way though, even having a commander fully exposed to any form of machine gun and sides that are easily penned by fiddy with a front that is more resistant. US of course faces less fiddies, though still sees some.

That said, if you're worried about fiddies, the regular puma is a solid contender in uptiers too as it gets around 100mm pen with the APHE and fires very fast, very nice for flanking and gets some 150mm pen APCR incase you really need it. Also gets a closed turret that's frontally immune to fiddy all while being at 2.7. I'd say it definitely vastly outperforms the chaffee at 3.3 and is fine to uptier.

I do understand though that gaijin balances entirely around winrates on the vehicles, though this metric in of itself is broken. By continuing to uptier a vehicle because it has a high winrate it ends up weeding out all the players that could barely use the thing before and leaves only very good players using the vehicle. We can see this in obvious example with the uptiering of the Jumbo and its rise in stats along with the downtiering of the Tiger I and its loss of stats. Spookston actually makes a pretty good video talking about this issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s83Z0jac7W0

Personally I feel that a vehicle having a garbage tier winrate is fine if the vehicle is put in a place where it is on par with its peers, it should be up to the player to actually learn to play the tank that they drive rather than just getting more and more BR handouts because they don't know how to aim/drive/see.

[SwooshBear]

Originally posted by Dakota:

Originally posted by uɐɐılʎʇs:

Premium and event vehicles always take much longer to be balanced. Unlike other vehicles they arent used nearly as much so have far less usage stats to balance off.
For every one of the /4 you will see a multitude of the researchable variants.
The other big difference for the comparison is that a pakpuma can be taken out with .50s, something that their opponent usually has a ton of. But the rest of the comparisons still ring true.

As for the 5.7 lineup it is more then capable, they may not be OP like they once were but even in uptiers you can see regular matches where m18s or Jumbos still push right through a german team and are pretty much the sole reason for a win.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying this game has good balance on a vehicle standpoint. For the most part it works, Most vehicles still end up at a 50% winrate, some with better KDs etc but things seem balanced.

With players as generally bad as they are either with horrible lineups, no awareness, an inability to aim at weakspots and leaving after 1 death etc it is hard to actually balance by player statistics. Looking at the scoreboard at the end of a game with sometimes 3/4 of your team with multiple deaths and no kills and often not even a single assists(something needs to die to get an assist) its honestly a surprised that games end up being a fight. And its those players who also contribute to the stats that decide how some vehicles are balanced.

Now if vehicles were actually balanced with their capability and not their use then there would be even more complaining.
Compare a 4.0 ish t34 verse a PZIV.. Be at range, be patient and show some restraint/know how to aim and i doubt youll die to a t34 before you take out 10 or more(if any can get close enough).
Rush in a close quarters map and come face to face and both panic shoot, chances are youll bounce of the t34 while it pens one of your many flat pieces of armour.

Now how does a game play out, most the team rushes, you have half a team feeding Spawn points to the enemy doing stupid crap, in comes CAS(for either side) 1 side gets thinned out and your against multiple of an enemy with blind teammates that dont attempt to cover you.
Thats an average game for 1 team, or even both. Those games are contributing to how each vehicle gets its BR adjustments decided.

And yet with that being the case, i would find it hard to find many tanks that players cant get a positive KD with, or with a group that players couldnt get a positive winrate with.

Pakpuma's surprisingly good against fiddy, front resists them whereas the turret doesn't. Hellcat is similar in this way though, even having a commander fully exposed to any form of machine gun and sides that are easily penned by fiddy with a front that is more resistant. US of course faces less fiddies, though still sees some.

That said, if you're worried about fiddies, the regular puma is a solid contender in uptiers too as it gets around 100mm pen with the APHE and fires very fast, very nice for flanking and gets some 150mm pen APCR incase you really need it. Also gets a closed turret that's frontally immune to fiddy all while being at 2.7. I'd say it definitely vastly outperforms the chaffee at 3.3 and is fine to uptier.

I do understand though that gaijin balances entirely around winrates on the vehicles, though this metric in of itself is broken. By continuing to uptier a vehicle because it has a high winrate it ends up weeding out all the players that could barely use the thing before and leaves only very good players using the vehicle. We can see this in obvious example with the uptiering of the Jumbo and its rise in stats along with the downtiering of the Tiger I and its loss of stats. Spookston actually makes a pretty good video talking about this issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s83Z0jac7W0

Personally I feel that a vehicle having a garbage tier winrate is fine if the vehicle is put in a place where it is on par with its peers, it should be up to the player to actually learn to play the tank that they drive rather than just getting more and more BR handouts because they don't know how to aim/drive/see.

The issue with the Tiger is that you immediately jump from a 3.0 Panzer 3, to a 5.3 Tiger. Of course players are going to be bad with it. Its a very well balanced tank that is more on the difficult side of using despite what allied players will say, so its hard for new comer players to adjust to that massive BR leap. I know i did years ago when I got it. You learn very quickly that it isnt the armored beast everyone makes it out to be and plays a lot more like an upgraded panzer IV

[Spude]

Murican 5.7 is like bigger bunch of T-34/85s - not truly bad, not truly great, got bit of everything but master at nothing compared to other's at the BR.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by PLeaSe HeLp:

The issue with the Tiger is that you immediately jump from a 3.0 Panzer 3, to a 5.3 Tiger. Of course players are going to be bad with it. Its a very well balanced tank that is more on the difficult side of using despite what allied players will say, so its hard for new comer players to adjust to that massive BR leap. I know i did years ago when I got it. You learn very quickly that it isnt the armored beast everyone makes it out to be and plays a lot more like an upgraded panzer IV

Honestly I never once thought to rush towards the tiger since I know the panther's obviously superior and the PZ IV line is way better than the PZ III line and that has a 4.3 lineup in there too. It really kinda surprised me that people just BR rush like that without any sort of lineup or anything, but then again most people playing the Tiger manage to surprise me with a general crippling lack of knowledge.

I wouldn't really say the thing is nearly on the "difficult side of using" its just moreso that it isn't one of the point and click adventure tanks against heavies at its BR though still is against the mediums. Though I would say that the PZ III line is an absolutely great preparation for the Tiger I since the PZ III gun is good but yet will have trouble penning some things that it sees so at that point they should have learned aiming for weakspots and having armor that is decent but not impenetrable but yet can be very good when angled with use of terrain. PZ III is a considerably higher skill requirement vehicle than the Tiger I that comes after it. In comparison the Tiger is around the same speed, has a much better gun for its BR so it gets through a lot more and its filler has no trouble finishing off targets, and the side armor means it can angle even without help of terrain against some targets.

Doesn't really play like a PZ IV much at all, PZ IV is pretty much no effective armor or ability to angle due to the angled bits on the front sides but the gun for its BR is tank destroyer tier so its role is to sit back and snipe. Panther sort of fits this role a bit better seeing as it accels at sitting back and sniping to keep the turret from being hit but with the additional benefit of that very high hull armor rather than hull armor that only becomes effective at range.

[YUNG_BRUH]

BRUH FINALLY,me also I played 8 games in a row and I got full uptiets facing f jagtiger.I dont know what gaijin did but all the brs from 5 to 7 got ♥♥♥♥♥♥ with mixed uptiers and downtiers in the same game.Ysterday I was spawning my Bkack Princh,my team was full of 5,7 US vehicles but low and behold.A f ru251 sniped me across the map:((((