How to make playing US 5.0 bearable?

[TitaniumTom]

Hi all, I joined the War Thunder community about 4 years ago by the recommendation from a friend, and I instantly fell in love with it being that I love studying the world wars and have always been fascinated with vehicle combat during both of them. Unfortunately at the time my hardware I had was inadequate for playing ground forces so I was relegated to only playing air battles. Finally a few months ago I got a dedicated gaming laptop and have been enjoying ground forces a lot since then.

I have always played the US in both aviation and armor as I’m a patriotic SOB and the Sherman being my favorite tank of the war made for a nice combination. I struggled a bit in 3.7 with my US lineup (M4, M4A1, M4A2, M10, M24) but have recently gotten the hang of it and I’m usually near the top of the leaderboard on most games.

I was incredibly excited when I started researching the 5.0 Shermans (Jumbo and both 76’s) as those variants (especially the Jumbo) are my favorites of the Shermans. I of course have heard talk on forums about the BR raise from 4.7 to 5.0 with them, however I didn’t think it would matter too much. Unfortunately I came to the quick realization that they’re not as good as their 3.7 counterparts, to put it mildly.

To start out with the problems all of them face; they’re constantly, and I mean CONSTANTLY uptiered. I think I’ve had only one match so far where I was actually at my BR, every other battle has been at 5.7 or 6.0, with the occasional 5.3. This creates different problems for both variants of Shermans, which I will go into more detail with below.

Starting with the Jumbo, its main selling point is obviously the armor, boasting its ability to stop an 88. This comes at a cost however, with the 75mm gun being fairly weak at its tier. This is understandable to me and seems pretty fair. However, when uptiered (which as I mentioned is basically every game) your armor is pretty much useless against most of the guns your opponents carry. The already weak 75mm gun is now basically useless to all but light tanks and SPAA (unless you flank, of course, though I’ll get into that in a bit). You face Panthers that can snipe you through your UFP from kilometers away, and even the Tiger’s 88 (and even the 88 anti tank half track/truck, I’m not sure of its name) have even gone through just fine (and no, I don’t rush them thinking I’m invincible if you thought that). People just say “angle your armor” but there’s a seemingly equal amount that say “no because it exposes your sides” and I honestly have no idea who to listen to anymore.

As for the 76’s, the meta appears to be a flanking maneuver, which I always go for. The problem is I’m usually seen by an enemy coming out of spawn while flanking and because my armor is so weak my 10+ minute flanking mission is ruined by getting instantly obliterated by whoever saw me. And every on the rare occasion that I do flank unnoticed, once I shoot and kill someone the rest of the enemy team suddenly exit tunnel vision mode and my fate is usually the same as the latter but with a kill or two with my name. The same issues basically apply with flanking with the Jumbo but to a slightly less extent because of the added armor.

Now I’m by no means a pro player, however I certainly I have enough experience that my skill can’t be the only contributing factor here. For years I’ve heard the arguments about Russian/German bias and have mostly passed them off as just people being salty, but now I’m not so sure... I’d like to say no but Shermans shouldn’t really be facing vehicles that negate most of their positive attributes (at least not this many). It’s a shame, really. I was ready to toss my money at Gaijin for the Cobra King during the VE Day sake likely coming up as I love the story behind it but now I’m not so sure considering I’ve had these problems with the Jumbo. All of this then culminates into me losing more SL than I gain as I have to spend them to repair my KO’d Shermans.

Basically I’m asking if any of you have any tips at all for making 5.0 US at least somewhat more fun to play, as right now I’m seriously considering to just stop playing altogether, which I really don’t want to do as I love the premise of this game but honestly it causes me more frustration than a game should IMO.

TL;DR: I recently unlocked the Sherman Jumbo and 76’s, I’ve been getting uptiered constantly with the supposedly best tactics to use for them now working at all, driving me both into insanity and SL debt. Looking for tips that could possibly help me.

Sorry if this post is all over the place, I’m not used to posting stuff like this.

[microspace38]

Tl;dr practice makes perfect to learn the slight angle and find the perfect cover. Move and wiggle, be aggressive but not Leeroy, close to medium range and occasionally brawl. M4A1 is best for support, but can brawl if absolutely necessary. The Chair Force is the best at this BR range, with more planes that simultaneously excel at bombing and anti-air than your enemy has AA.

The Jumbo is definitely a weird tank to get used to, since unlike most heavies it has weak hull armor since it's legit just an uparmored M4A3, and because of how shells work in-game your first UFP gets overmatched and decreases the angle the shell hits your second UFP, making the effectiveness lower than it actually should be. Yes you gotta angle to maximize your armor effectiveness, but only slightly, and it takes a LOT of practice to find the sweet spot, and even then you'll still end up in situations where you're screwed. Too little and you aren't being efficient, too much and you expose a big weakzone. Additionally, you'll want to slightly angle your turret when facing Tigers and Panthers in order to maximize the effectiveness of your mantlet. Also, you have a "gyro stabilizer", which means that your gun is perfectly stable on somewhat flat ground and low speeds.
As for tactics, you'll want to stay at close to medium range in order to keep using your gun effectively, but if necessary you can brawl since you're an extra thicc sherman. When engaging enemies, either hide behind cover that you can peek over while hiding your weakspots (lower hull and MG port) or alternate between reverse CC and CC1 while wiggling your hull, and always make sure to slightly angle your turret away from the enemy when you're not trying to aim and shoot. The jumbo can be an amazing tank when on its own and can even hold back an advance from several enemy tanks, but it generally does better around teammates with bigger guns, who can take out any enemies you keep distracted.

The 76mm M4A1 has never been a tank I particularly liked, since it's always been overtiered for what it actually is (especially now at 5.0). However, despite its struggles, it is actually a pretty good backup tank, as it retains the nuke power of American APHE while having enough penetration to bully Tiger 1's and IS-1 or 2's; however, most of these should already be dead by the time you take your A1 into battle, so it should basically be a point-and-click adventure. There's not too much to say about this one imo, as it's just an upgunned A1 with ammo that doesn't immediately burn up.
For tactics, you can generally do what you would with previous Shermans, but at longer ranges. Your hull is identical to the 3.3 A1 while your turret is slightly thiccer, so you can't exactly count on it to protect you at close ranges, but if you expose only your turret at medium to long ranges you can expect to bounce some shots. It is generally best used as a second-line support tank for the Churchill VII's and Jumbos, staying back so it isn't immediately targeted but close enough it can take care of any enemies that the heavies struggle with. Overall it isn't the destroyer of worlds it was at lower BRs, but it can still be very deadly when used properly.

You specifically mentioned these two tanks, but something that's just as important for a 5.0 US Tank RB lineup is aircraft. The US has some amazing fighter-bombers for Tank RB, with large enough payloads to cause some serious damage, enough guns to delete lightly-armored vehicles and aircraft, enough pen on its guns to go through some medium tanks' roofs, and enough speed to quickly nope out from enemy AA and get back into the battle soon. The P-47's are great for this, but the F6F also works well if you want to retain most of your payload while getting better maneuverability, while the P-51D-5 is great if you want to prioritize air superiority while retaining a pretty decent payload. In any case, you at least have to take out the P-51D-30, as it is an amazing fighter to keep the skies clear of enemy planes while providing aerial recon. If you're feeling ballsy, you can take out the P-61C-1 or the B-25, as both of these have deadly turret armament and respectable payloads.

[Lunovus]

Have fun with 5.0 US tanks?

Use the M18 to zoom around, capping things, killing enemies while getting in and out of cover, and make sure the enemy only sees the front of your Jumbo.

You can still use the M24 and the M15, no need to pay for M19's repairs.

Next are the two 5.3s, and then you should straight go to 6.0.

[Slyke]

It's not the game, it's you. American 5.0 is very much viable, including full uptier. Study maps and enemy tanks, improve your tactics, practice. If you don't know where to hit some tanks, use protection analysis in hangar.

The only not so obvious advice I can give you for Shermans specifically is that you should play off of your stabilizers more than anything else. They only work on mostly flat ground and at low speed (for RB lowest cruise control speed is the fastest you can go for it to still work), but they make your extremely lethal when used correctly.

If you aren't sure when to use stabilizers, just use them always until you get the hang of it. Go at full speed only when you know you're safe or have to quickly relocate, otherwise switch to combat speed (slowest cruise control).

[Scrotum Scratcher]

US at that tier will always be outgunned and out-armored. My advice is to bring a lot of planes with bombs to kill heavier tanks and use your cheap mediums to maybe cap a point or get a few kills by flanking with your mobility and stabilizers.

[Colonel Cancer]

The U.S 5.0 is definitely one of the weakest part of the tree. Only played it the minimum to grind out the super pershing and just completely ignored the m4a3 76mm and the 76mm jumbo(still had to grind them but didnt bother playing it much). Imagine using a 3.7br gun on a 2.7br hull(m4a3 76mm) at 5.7 or a 3.7 br gun and a 4.7br hull(76mm jumbo) at 6.0. After the 5.0 grind tho, the t26, m26, m41, t26e1 are all really good. Conversely, I also got up to 7.0 in both the USSR and german trees and can safely say, I'll take a tiger, panther, t34-85 or is1-2 over any of the shermans at 5.0+ any day. Too many play the tigers and russians like idiots and complain about the US being op.
TL; DR= 5.0 americans are dookie

[Velesianus]

You should also be aware that the meta for 5.0 ground rb has definitely shifted. The introduction of Sweden as well as various patch adjustments have evened things out a lot in that br range and may even have swung things in favor of the axis.

Before 1.97 you could jump in a ram and have literally a +70% chance of being on the winning team. I'm guessing 3-4 weeks from now it's avg WR will drop by at least 20% on thunderskill.

[TitaniumTom]

Originally posted by microspace38:

Tl;dr practice makes perfect to learn the slight angle and find the perfect cover. Move and wiggle, be aggressive but not Leeroy, close to medium range and occasionally brawl. M4A1 is best for support, but can brawl if absolutely necessary. The Chair Force is the best at this BR range, with more planes that simultaneously excel at bombing and anti-air than your enemy has AA.

The Jumbo is definitely a weird tank to get used to, since unlike most heavies it has weak hull armor since it's legit just an uparmored M4A3, and because of how shells work in-game your first UFP gets overmatched and decreases the angle the shell hits your second UFP, making the effectiveness lower than it actually should be. Yes you gotta angle to maximize your armor effectiveness, but only slightly, and it takes a LOT of practice to find the sweet spot, and even then you'll still end up in situations where you're screwed. Too little and you aren't being efficient, too much and you expose a big weakzone. Additionally, you'll want to slightly angle your turret when facing Tigers and Panthers in order to maximize the effectiveness of your mantlet. Also, you have a "gyro stabilizer", which means that your gun is perfectly stable on somewhat flat ground and low speeds.
As for tactics, you'll want to stay at close to medium range in order to keep using your gun effectively, but if necessary you can brawl since you're an extra thicc sherman. When engaging enemies, either hide behind cover that you can peek over while hiding your weakspots (lower hull and MG port) or alternate between reverse CC and CC1 while wiggling your hull, and always make sure to slightly angle your turret away from the enemy when you're not trying to aim and shoot. The jumbo can be an amazing tank when on its own and can even hold back an advance from several enemy tanks, but it generally does better around teammates with bigger guns, who can take out any enemies you keep distracted.

The 76mm M4A1 has never been a tank I particularly liked, since it's always been overtiered for what it actually is (especially now at 5.0). However, despite its struggles, it is actually a pretty good backup tank, as it retains the nuke power of American APHE while having enough penetration to bully Tiger 1's and IS-1 or 2's; however, most of these should already be dead by the time you take your A1 into battle, so it should basically be a point-and-click adventure. There's not too much to say about this one imo, as it's just an upgunned A1 with ammo that doesn't immediately burn up.
For tactics, you can generally do what you would with previous Shermans, but at longer ranges. Your hull is identical to the 3.3 A1 while your turret is slightly thiccer, so you can't exactly count on it to protect you at close ranges, but if you expose only your turret at medium to long ranges you can expect to bounce some shots. It is generally best used as a second-line support tank for the Churchill VII's and Jumbos, staying back so it isn't immediately targeted but close enough it can take care of any enemies that the heavies struggle with. Overall it isn't the destroyer of worlds it was at lower BRs, but it can still be very deadly when used properly.

You specifically mentioned these two tanks, but something that's just as important for a 5.0 US Tank RB lineup is aircraft. The US has some amazing fighter-bombers for Tank RB, with large enough payloads to cause some serious damage, enough guns to delete lightly-armored vehicles and aircraft, enough pen on its guns to go through some medium tanks' roofs, and enough speed to quickly nope out from enemy AA and get back into the battle soon. The P-47's are great for this, but the F6F also works well if you want to retain most of your payload while getting better maneuverability, while the P-51D-5 is great if you want to prioritize air superiority while retaining a pretty decent payload. In any case, you at least have to take out the P-51D-30, as it is an amazing fighter to keep the skies clear of enemy planes while providing aerial recon. If you're feeling ballsy, you can take out the P-61C-1 or the B-25, as both of these have deadly turret armament and respectable payloads.

Thank you for such an informative post! Definitely the most help I've gotten on this topic so far. I'll try to apply more of this to my matches and hopefully it might turn things around for me. As for CAS, don't worry as I always carry a P-47 with a full payload.

Originally posted by Lunovus:

Have fun with 5.0 US tanks?

Use the M18 to zoom around, capping things, killing enemies while getting in and out of cover, and make sure the enemy only sees the front of your Jumbo.

You can still use the M24 and the M15, no need to pay for M19's repairs.

Next are the two 5.3s, and then you should straight go to 6.0.

Well, I have the M18 in a different lineup (5.7 with the Easy 8 and M36, though I haven't played it yet since I'm still building it up) and moving it to an available crew slot would cost a decent amount of SL, though I'll think about it (my current 5.0 lineup is the Jumbo, M4A1 76, M4A2 76, and P-47 with a crew slot empty on the end for if/when I buy the Cobra King).

Originally posted by Curst:

It's not the game, it's you. American 5.0 is very much viable, including full uptier. Study maps and enemy tanks, improve your tactics, practice. If you don't know where to hit some tanks, use protection analysis in hangar.

The only not so obvious advice I can give you for Shermans specifically is that you should play off of your stabilizers more than anything else. They only work on mostly flat ground and at low speed (for RB lowest cruise control speed is the fastest you can go for it to still work), but they make your extremely lethal when used correctly.

If you aren't sure when to use stabilizers, just use them always until you get the hang of it. Go at full speed only when you know you're safe or have to quickly relocate, otherwise switch to combat speed (slowest cruise control).

I certainly do agree that it's not just the game, my skill does play a decent factor into it as well. I wouldn't even mind playing against the German big cats and Russian heavies if there just weren't so many. Dealing with 1 or 2 is just fine but half a team is a bit much IMO. Maybe it just feels this way since US tanks have to at least use a decent amount of skill to take out a well-placed Panther but all a Panther has to do is sneeze in your general direction and it's back to the hangar. Also I have gotten decently familiar with the stabilizer from the 3.7 Shermans, it really does give you an edge and helped me to increase my match performance by a lot.

Originally posted by Scrotum Scratcher:

US at that tier will always be outgunned and out-armored. My advice is to bring a lot of planes with bombs to kill heavier tanks and use your cheap mediums to maybe cap a point or get a few kills by flanking with your mobility and stabilizers.

Certainly does feel that way most of the time... I guess that's where the P-47 comes into play.

Originally posted by Colonel Cancer:

The U.S 5.0 is definitely one of the weakest part of the tree. Only played it the minimum to grind out the super pershing and just completely ignored the m4a3 76mm and the 76mm jumbo(still had to grind them but didnt bother playing it much). Imagine using a 3.7br gun on a 2.7br hull(m4a3 76mm) at 5.7 or a 3.7 br gun and a 4.7br hull(76mm jumbo) at 6.0. After the 5.0 grind tho, the t26, m26, m41, t26e1 are all really good. Conversely, I also got up to 7.0 in both the USSR and german trees and can safely say, I'll take a tiger, panther, t34-85 or is1-2 over any of the shermans at 5.0+ any day. Too many play the tigers and russians like idiots and complain about the US being op.
TL; DR= 5.0 americans are dookie

That's a shame, I love the Jumbo and Sherman 76's. Oh well, I do like the Pershing as well so hopefully it'll be better like you say. And yeah, Kraut big cats and Ruskie heavies seem much easier to play, at least compared to the Shermans they always face, so it baffles me that any of them can call the US OP.

Originally posted by (｡◕‿◕｡):

You should also be aware that the meta for 5.0 ground rb has definitely shifted. The introduction of Sweden as well as various patch adjustments have evened things out a lot in that br range and may even have swung things in favor of the axis.

Before 1.97 you could jump in a ram and have literally a +70% chance of being on the winning team. I'm guessing 3-4 weeks from now it's avg WR will drop by at least 20% on thunderskill.

Oh absolutely, 3.7 has seen some massive changes as well. I've got a friend who plays Russians and since he hasn't gotten as far up the tech tree as I have we usually stick with 3.7 for now. I swear, every game I see at least 3 or 4 SAV's, sometimes even more. Thankfully most of them seem to be the players that bought it from the hype and think its some invincible death machine, easy kills in my Sherman 75. But every few matches you get the smart ones... oh boy.

[Slyke]

Originally posted by TitaniumTom:

I certainly do agree that it's not just the game, my skill does play a decent factor into it as well. I wouldn't even mind playing against the German big cats and Russian heavies if there just weren't so many. ...

In my experience the most effective way of dealing with Panthers for Shermans is by catching them out of position. They need to stop before firing and Shermans don't. For regular M4 it means you'll get the first shot and for Jumbos it also increases the chances of bouncing the return shots. Germans are significantly less mobile at that BR, so this shouldn't be too difficult to set up with enough experience and map knowledge.

As for the Soviets, they don't have anything truly difficult to deal with at that BR range. The only ones that come close are the IS tanks, but they are forced to play very defensively by their low mobility and reload rate (and their turrets can be easily penned by 76mm guns). Which means that their impact on the battlefield is directly proportional to the number of overly eager opponents. Just don't be like that and you'll be fine.

[TitaniumTom]

Originally posted by Curst:

Originally posted by TitaniumTom:

I certainly do agree that it's not just the game, my skill does play a decent factor into it as well. I wouldn't even mind playing against the German big cats and Russian heavies if there just weren't so many. ...

In my experience the most effective way of dealing with Panthers for Shermans is by catching them out of position. They need to stop before firing and Shermans don't. For regular M4 it means you'll get the first shot and for Jumbos it also increases the chances of bouncing the return shots. Germans are significantly less mobile at that BR, so this shouldn't be too difficult to set up with enough experience and map knowledge.

As for the Soviets, they don't have anything truly difficult to deal with at that BR range. The only ones that come close are the IS tanks, but they are forced to play very defensively by their low mobility and reload rate (and their turrets can be easily penned by 76mm guns). Which means that their impact on the battlefield is directly proportional to the number of overly eager opponents. Just don't be like that and you'll be fine.

Yeah, it's just always tough catching them like that though. Sometimes you get lucky and catch that Michael Wittmann wannabe but most of the ones I play against seem to always have a nice spot you never see them in till it's too late, forcing you to go on the offensive and likely get killed doing it.