buff HESH and APDS

[CT center]

buff HESH and APDS

these shells are seriously underpowered and its just depressing to use them in general.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1562479602
i used a centurion mk 10 with HESH shells and shot at a leopard.
are you really going to sit there and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ tell me that 3 kg of TNT is not enough to detonate these shells even when i fired precisely over them? are you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ kidding me??

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1562479427
then we have APDS where you cant even kill a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crew if youre an inch off target.

yet any german tank will just instakill you, even if the shell they use doesnt have any TNT equivalent filler.

is this really meant to be fun, gaijin?

[Kay]

HESH explosive goes off outside the tank and sends fragments of the armour in to the tank, so it's not really relevant how much explosive is in it, it's fragments of armour hitting the ammunition and not the HESH shell (the explosion is still outside the tank, it doesn't come in to contact with the ammunition)

APDS is underperforming in every vehicle, including the Leopard 1

[CT center]

but if the force of 3KG of TNT is being forced on these shells containing a lot of TNT equivalent then youd expect something to happen, not just for the shells to act as this indestructible wall against HESH shells.
plus with that amount of force you would end up realistically hull breaking half the tanks youd see, but ofc this game doesnt take that into account.

[Kay]

Originally posted by CT center:

but if the force of 3KG of TNT is being forced on these shells containing a lot of TNT equivalent then youd expect something to happen, not just for the shells to act as this indestructible wall against HESH shells.
plus with that amount of force you would end up realistically hull breaking half the tanks youd see, but ofc this game doesnt take that into account.

It does do something.

It causes fragmentation of the interior face of the armour.

That's what HESH does.

It's not the explosive that's in contact with anything, it's fragments from the tank's armour.

[CT center]

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

Originally posted by CT center:

but if the force of 3KG of TNT is being forced on these shells containing a lot of TNT equivalent then youd expect something to happen, not just for the shells to act as this indestructible wall against HESH shells.
plus with that amount of force you would end up realistically hull breaking half the tanks youd see, but ofc this game doesnt take that into account.

It does do something.

It causes fragmentation of the interior face of the armour.

That's what HESH does.

It's not the explosive that's in contact with anything, it's fragments from the tank's armour.

yes ik, but it would practically hull break the tank.

[saymyname]

"Then how could we push towards paygrind to reach modern times and APDSFS ?"

Gaijin

[kamikazi21358]

I actually tested it, APDS is performing unhistorically:

Currently APCR does double the damage of APDS, meanwhile APDS does not do very much damage at all.

[Yansomi]

well hesh was nerf to ♥♥♥♥, actully it does not even have the right "pen" (does not realy pen) value,
all the hesh shells i can find that the royal ordinace L7 used have 300 mm of effecive pen and some others have 310mm.

It should be more effective, justdont think the game would be much fun then, i meen the hesh was more or less made to counter the heavy armor in russian tanks, so kinda make sence that it in reality could go through tanks like the IS-3, IS-4, IS-6, IS-7 and T-54 variants kinda easy

[kamikazi21358]

Instead of buffing HESH ‘penetration’, they should:
-remove hullbreak
-add improved CE mechanics

This would solve it

[trevorkrause]

Hesh is amazing and great for that tomato soup in a can experience..........

[Kay]

Originally posted by Yansomi:

well hesh was nerf to ♥♥♥♥, actully it does not even have the right "pen" (does not realy pen) value,
all the hesh shells i can find that the royal ordinace L7 used have 300 mm of effecive pen and some others have 310mm.

It should be more effective, justdont think the game would be much fun then, i meen the hesh was more or less made to counter the heavy armor in russian tanks, so kinda make sence that it in reality could go through tanks like the IS-3, IS-4, IS-6, IS-7 and T-54 variants kinda easy

"Effective penetration". Remember, no matter how HESH hits, it always explodes at 0 degrees to the plate, effectively infinite normalisation.

Most if not all penetration charts are defeated plate thickness, not effective thickness, which is especially important for HESH (see above) it even acts this way in game, and the penetration tables in game are in terms of defeated plate thickness, not effective thickness.

120mm HESH can cause damage against up to 160mm of armour though (Chieftain 120mm, http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/21/1464368924-l15-apds-versus-slope.png )

And a NATO document on the relationship between HESH calibre and defeated plate thickness ( http://i.imgur.com/BI0RHAJ.jpg )

Giving HESH 300mm flat pen would be completely incorrect.

[kamikazi21358]

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

Originally posted by Yansomi:

well hesh was nerf to ♥♥♥♥, actully it does not even have the right "pen" (does not realy pen) value,
all the hesh shells i can find that the royal ordinace L7 used have 300 mm of effecive pen and some others have 310mm.

It should be more effective, justdont think the game would be much fun then, i meen the hesh was more or less made to counter the heavy armor in russian tanks, so kinda make sence that it in reality could go through tanks like the IS-3, IS-4, IS-6, IS-7 and T-54 variants kinda easy

"Effective penetration". Remember, no matter how HESH hits, it always explodes at 0 degrees to the plate, effectively infinite normalisation.

Most if not all penetration charts are defeated plate thickness, not effective thickness, which is especially important for HESH (see above) it even acts this way in game, and the penetration tables in game are in terms of defeated plate thickness, not effective thickness.

120mm HESH can cause damage against up to 160mm of armour though (Chieftain 120mm, http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/21/1464368924-l15-apds-versus-slope.png )

And a NATO document on the relationship between HESH calibre and defeated plate thickness (http://i.imgur.com/BI0RHAJ.jpg )

Giving HESH 300mm flat pen would be completely incorrect.

Your 2nd link is blocked.

I still don’t think though HESH should be delt with like penetration, I think it would be more effective just to have more advanced CE mechanics in game.

[Kay]

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

Your 2nd link is blocked.

I still don’t think though HESH should be delt with like penetration, I think it would be more effective just to have more advanced CE mechanics in game.

Fixed, bracket was being included in the link for some stupid reason

[kamikazi21358]

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

Your 2nd link is blocked.

I still don’t think though HESH should be delt with like penetration, I think it would be more effective just to have more advanced CE mechanics in game.

Fixed, bracket was being included in the link for some stupid reason

It’s still blocked, however I still saw it, I quoted the post and copy-paste the link into the browser.

[Kay]

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

Fixed, bracket was being included in the link for some stupid reason

It’s still blocked, however I still saw it, I quoted the post and copy-paste the link into the browser.

Interesting, it's fine for me now (in my post)

Point being that HESH doesn't really care about angles and most charts are in terms of defeated plate

[Bluefromnowhere]

I think it's a problem with it being a game. APDS generally has higher penetration than a standard solid shot, but it's a smaller projectile - (also) without explosive filler. Presumably WT works-out the amount of shrapnel inside the tank and with an APDS shot being physically smaller it does 'less' damage once 'inside'. In real life if your tank is hit (and penetrated) you'd probably get out if you could. A game can't replicate that.