Tiger 2 vs M60 Patton = Balance

[Lord Castellan Majorian]

Cold war tanks should have a different matchmaker.

[83athom]

Lol, no. Trust me, the Patton has it far worse.

[Mechanical_Lamb23]

just shoot its turret around the gun. Only about 170m thick. Or the turret mg.

Really the m60 is a terrible tank in the game. Bad accuracy, stock round is meh and heatfs is inconsistent, only good armor is the hull. Only good part is the reload.

[AceHault]

Originally posted by Lord Castillan:

Cold war tanks should have a different matchmaker.

The truth is everyone gets raped by matchmaking, im pretty sure these Pattons get uptiered as hell.

[kamikazi21358]

DO YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD SOLVE THIS?

BR Decompression

[trevorkrause]

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

DO YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD SOLVE THIS?

BR Decompression

Keep hearing this what exactly does it mean?

[N0rmaN]

lol try using the black prince rn. It is most often in games with the KT. lets compare the 2

KT is twice as fast
KT has better Armour
KT has better Gun
BP has SABOT

overall they are both heavy tanks, if im an a BP and a KT shoots me in the front i die. if i shoot him in the front it will most likely bounce or kill at max 1 crew member or the transmission. He get to the point faster than me so he can choose his spot. broke as hell.

[Azi]

Same argument as always, my X tank cant pen Y tank so I want my X tank to go down, despite said X tank can pen Y tank with help... Also, notice how usually the use the Tiger II H as reference for this argument as if it would make the Tiger II H the best thing out there....

Anyway, on the thing, Cold War and WW2 shouldnt really be separated since WW2 tanks can be up to early Cold-War standards here in War Thunder... Tiger II H vs Centurion 3, IS-6 vs M46... Among others... If anything yes, what the Matchmaker needs is decompression not separating Cold War from World War 2

[Omega Sirius]

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

DO YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD SOLVE THIS?

BR Decompression

That wouldn't even work, it'd make MM longer, matches would be less diverse, and you'd be fighting vehicles you hate more often.

[kamikazi21358]

Originally posted by trevorkrause:

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

DO YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD SOLVE THIS?

BR Decompression

Keep hearing this what exactly does it mean?

It means ‘decompressing’ the BR system, specifically 6.0-10.0 is what needs it.


So, giving an example, low tier you have at 3.3 the Panzer IV F2. A full 1.0 BR difference above it is the Panzer IV H, which is an upgrade, but it’s upgrade is really just 30mm more frontal armor, better turret traverse, 1mm of extra penetration for it’s gun, and 5mm schürtzen. Even in full uptiers, the F2, or any tank between around 1.0-5.0, is competitive.


Now, let’s compare the T-55A and T-55AM-1:
T-55AM-1 is the T-55A, except for the following improvements:
-Turret BDD that protects the front sides of the turret, giving it more effective armor than the Abrams.
-UFP composite armor that gives it multi-hundreds of mm of extra protection, and makes it immune to 95% of APDS and HEAT-FS it faces.
-4.5km range laser rangefinder,
-and fires 650mm penetrating ATGMs with 4km range.

The T-55A is 8.3, and the T-55AM-1 is 8.7.


And of course, I can give example after example after example why 6.0-10.0 is f***ed up.



What BR decompression does:

Imagine it as a rubber band - you stretch the BRs and they separate them more. Top tier increases: say 10.0 tanks become 11.0, 12.0, or higher (I actually played around with some numbers, I personally think top tier for late Cold War tanks with historical ammo and armor should be ~14.0), and stretching it out makes sure stuff like the Tiger II doesn’t face vehicles that are not only faster and more mobile, more heavily armored, bigger gun, and superior to the Tiger in every way, but as well has the ammunition to penetrate it literally at any range or angle. Or tanks 25+ years apart don’t have to face each other constantly. So that vehicles that are too OP for one BR, but too underpowered for .3 BR above it’s current position (which there are a lot), are not either clubbing or being clubbed. Basically that’s what high tier is: you’re clubbing, or you’re being clubbed. Meanwhile at like 2.3 or so, literally don’t even notice if a game is an uptier or a downtier: all tanks are competitive, of course the downtiered tanks are better, but by such a marginal amount that all players can compete.

I probably could spend an hour just giving all sorts of examples and stuff, but I’d rather not. I have been working on some BR decompression suggestions, however unfortunately, I have a life so it’s difficult. But basically imagine 6.0-10.0 as a piece of foam, currently it is pressed together, where all the BRs are tight together and compressed, compact - but it would be way more balanced to stretch it out and let it ‘decompress’, if that makes sense.

[Omega Sirius]

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

Originally posted by trevorkrause:

Keep hearing this what exactly does it mean?

It means ‘decompressing’ the BR system, specifically 6.0-10.0 is what needs it.


So, giving an example, low tier you have at 3.3 the Panzer IV F2. A full 1.0 BR difference above it is the Panzer IV H, which is an upgrade, but it’s upgrade is really just 30mm more frontal armor, better turret traverse, 1mm of extra penetration for it’s gun, and 5mm schürtzen. Even in full uptiers, the F2, or any tank between around 1.0-5.0, is competitive.


Now, let’s compare the T-55A and T-55AM-1:
T-55AM-1 is the T-55A, except for the following improvements:
-Turret BDD that protects the front sides of the turret, giving it more effective armor than the Abrams.
-UFP composite armor that gives it multi-hundreds of mm of extra protection, and makes it immune to 95% of APDS and HEAT-FS it faces.
-4.5km range laser rangefinder,
-and fires 650mm penetrating ATGMs with 4km range.

The T-55A is 8.3, and the T-55AM-1 is 8.7.


And of course, I can give example after example after example why 6.0-10.0 is f***ed up.



What BR decompression does:

Imagine it as a rubber band - you stretch the BRs and they separate them more. Top tier increases: say 10.0 tanks become 11.0, 12.0, or higher (I actually played around with some numbers, I personally think top tier for late Cold War tanks with historical ammo and armor should be ~14.0), and stretching it out makes sure stuff like the Tiger II doesn’t face vehicles that are not only faster and more mobile, more heavily armored, bigger gun, and superior to the Tiger in every way, but as well has the ammunition to penetrate it literally at any range or angle. Or tanks 25+ years apart don’t have to face each other constantly. So that vehicles that are too OP for one BR, but too underpowered for .3 BR above it’s current position (which there are a lot), are not either clubbing or being clubbed. Basically that’s what high tier is: you’re clubbing, or you’re being clubbed. Meanwhile at like 2.3 or so, literally don’t even notice if a game is an uptier or a downtier: all tanks are competitive, of course the downtiered tanks are better, but by such a marginal amount that all players can compete.

I probably could spend an hour just giving all sorts of examples and stuff, but I’d rather not. I have been working on some BR decompression suggestions, however unfortunately, I have a life so it’s difficult. But basically imagine 6.0-10.0 as a piece of foam, currently it is pressed together, where all the BRs are tight together and compressed, compact - but it would be way more balanced to stretch it out and let it ‘decompress’, if that makes sense.

You saying like instead we make vehicles MM with 1.0 higher or lower, we make the BR like 0.7 or 0.3 < or >?

[kamikazi21358]

Originally posted by Omega Sirius:

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

It means ‘decompressing’ the BR system, specifically 6.0-10.0 is what needs it.


So, giving an example, low tier you have at 3.3 the Panzer IV F2. A full 1.0 BR difference above it is the Panzer IV H, which is an upgrade, but it’s upgrade is really just 30mm more frontal armor, better turret traverse, 1mm of extra penetration for it’s gun, and 5mm schürtzen. Even in full uptiers, the F2, or any tank between around 1.0-5.0, is competitive.


Now, let’s compare the T-55A and T-55AM-1:
T-55AM-1 is the T-55A, except for the following improvements:
-Turret BDD that protects the front sides of the turret, giving it more effective armor than the Abrams.
-UFP composite armor that gives it multi-hundreds of mm of extra protection, and makes it immune to 95% of APDS and HEAT-FS it faces.
-4.5km range laser rangefinder,
-and fires 650mm penetrating ATGMs with 4km range.

The T-55A is 8.3, and the T-55AM-1 is 8.7.


And of course, I can give example after example after example why 6.0-10.0 is f***ed up.



What BR decompression does:

Imagine it as a rubber band - you stretch the BRs and they separate them more. Top tier increases: say 10.0 tanks become 11.0, 12.0, or higher (I actually played around with some numbers, I personally think top tier for late Cold War tanks with historical ammo and armor should be ~14.0), and stretching it out makes sure stuff like the Tiger II doesn’t face vehicles that are not only faster and more mobile, more heavily armored, bigger gun, and superior to the Tiger in every way, but as well has the ammunition to penetrate it literally at any range or angle. Or tanks 25+ years apart don’t have to face each other constantly. So that vehicles that are too OP for one BR, but too underpowered for .3 BR above it’s current position (which there are a lot), are not either clubbing or being clubbed. Basically that’s what high tier is: you’re clubbing, or you’re being clubbed. Meanwhile at like 2.3 or so, literally don’t even notice if a game is an uptier or a downtier: all tanks are competitive, of course the downtiered tanks are better, but by such a marginal amount that all players can compete.

I probably could spend an hour just giving all sorts of examples and stuff, but I’d rather not. I have been working on some BR decompression suggestions, however unfortunately, I have a life so it’s difficult. But basically imagine 6.0-10.0 as a piece of foam, currently it is pressed together, where all the BRs are tight together and compressed, compact - but it would be way more balanced to stretch it out and let it ‘decompress’, if that makes sense.

You saying like instead we make vehicles MM with 1.0 higher or lower, we make the BR like 0.7 or 0.3 < or >?

No.

Say take 6.0-6.7, instead,
all 6.3s go to 6.7, except for the worst 6.3s. Then most 6.7s go to 7.0, and 7.0s go up one, etc. Like throwing new BRs in there, stretching out the system a little (BR compression is way worse at high tier so it would be more,). The best 6.0s can go back to 6.3 and such.

But in the old system, you have:

T-34-85s and stuff at 5.7 for example. Then, at 6.3, less than even a full BR (if this was low tier it would be at least 1.0 BR apart), you have the T-44, with over double the frontal armor, same gun with better ammunition, and better mobility.

Then you have 5.7 tanks, many don’t even get APCR, like the Tiger H1 and stuff, get uptiered to see Königstigers and stuff. When you’re in say a Jumbo 76, what do you do against a Tiger II H?

So in the old system, we kind of fix the 5.7 uptiers always to 6.7 issue, there is one of the many, many issues Br decompression would fix.

So in the old 5.7-6.7 system, you may have stuff like:

5.7: Tiger I, Panther D, Panther A, T-34-85, Jumbo 76, Centurion Mk.I

6.0: Tiger (P), Black Prince, Panther G, Panther F,

6.3: T-44, IS-2 obr. 1944, M26, Jagdpanther, Ferdinand, Tiger II (P),

6.7: Tiger II (H), T34, T29, Panther II, etc.

(Notice the massive difference between some of those 5.7s compared to 6.7, or even 6.3 even. Would that be something you would see before 5.7 BR?)

New BR range for 5.7-7.0:

5.7: Tiger I, Panther D, T-34-85, Jumbo 76 (either 5.7 or 6.0), Centurion Mk.1

6.0: Tiger P, Black Prince, Panther A, Panther G,

6.3: Panther F, Jagdpanther, M26

6.7: Tiger II (P), T-44, IS-2 obr. 1944, Ferdinand,

7.0: Tiger II (H), T29, T34, etc
(Panther II would be 7.3 in new system: fixes issue that it’s too OP for 6.7, but too underpowered for 7.0. In this system, 7.0+ would be the same and stuff for example, so there are more ‘in between’ BRs to balance stuff like that).

So for example in this system, opponents would face better enemies of course in uptiers, but like other tiers, they would still be competitive - because what could a Panther D or a Tiger H1 do to a T34 turret, or a Jumbo 76 do to a Tiger II H?

Uptiers won’t be miserable, downtiers wont be easy club fest, it’s more balanced with all tanks being still competitive, while keeping diversity and everything.
And unlike a +/-7 system, this can be applied more to tiers that need it more, not effecting tiers that don’t have issues, create room for future vehicles (example: Gaijin said they wanted to add all variants of the T-64 at some point. There are 6 T-64s and 2 T-80s that would fit between the T-64A and T-80B in game currently, with a difference of .7 BR between them - how?), and even do stuff like try separating late WW2/early Cold War vehicles from ‘70s MBTs with HEAT-FS (yet keeping things balanced), so high rank IV, low rank V would feel a little more like the old days, etc.

[83athom]

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

So, giving an example, low tier you have at 3.3 the Panzer IV F2. A full 1.0 BR difference above it is the Panzer IV H, which is an upgrade, but it’s upgrade is really just 30mm more frontal armor, better turret traverse, 1mm of extra penetration for it’s gun, and 5mm schürtzen. Even in full uptiers, the F2, or any tank between around 1.0-5.0, is competitive.

To be fair the F2 is undertiered AF.

[kamikazi21358]

Originally posted by 83athom:

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

So, giving an example, low tier you have at 3.3 the Panzer IV F2. A full 1.0 BR difference above it is the Panzer IV H, which is an upgrade, but it’s upgrade is really just 30mm more frontal armor, better turret traverse, 1mm of extra penetration for it’s gun, and 5mm schürtzen. Even in full uptiers, the F2, or any tank between around 1.0-5.0, is competitive.

To be fair the F2 is undertiered AF.

I could state how I heard this argument many times before, so I went and played the Pz IV F2, T-34, M4A1, and Cromwell and found they are very balanced - T-34 has the balance of all, M4A1 has decent gun and armor, Cromwell has speed and firepower, and Pz IV F2 has just the pure firepower, however,
This is NOT the subject of the thread, and if you want to discuss this, please create a new thread or join an older F2 one.

Therefore, I shall use other examples:

Pz IV C vs Pz IV F1 (1.3-2.3)
-Gets +15mm side armor and +20mm frontal armor, loses -3mm rear armor.
-same gun, same mobility, almost no change otherwise.

T-34 obr. 1942 vs German T-34 (3.7-4.0)
-GeT-34 gets +15mm armor.
...

M4A1 W 76 vs M4A3E8 (4.7-5.3)
-better hull armor
-no other major change

Meanwhile,
T-64A vs T-64B obr. 1984 (9.3-9.7)
-Complete hull armor change, +hundred of mm of effective thickness
-Kontakt-1 ERA against CE
-way better ammunition (3BM15v3BM22)
-optical vs laser rangefinder
-ATGM missiles
-improves cannon
-better turret traverse

Cost: B is 1km/h slower, and just slightly heavier.

BR difference: 0.3

[halolo39]

Originally posted by 83athom:

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

So, giving an example, low tier you have at 3.3 the Panzer IV F2. A full 1.0 BR difference above it is the Panzer IV H, which is an upgrade, but it’s upgrade is really just 30mm more frontal armor, better turret traverse, 1mm of extra penetration for it’s gun, and 5mm schürtzen. Even in full uptiers, the F2, or any tank between around 1.0-5.0, is competitive.

To be fair the F2 is undertiered AF.

the F2 is a mixed bag, the gun can get it to 4.3 no problems but the flat weak armour is really pushes it down. it can go to 3.7 if gaijin wants to but the newbies will definitely play it like it is invincible ala the tiger tanks they hear in exaggerated WW2 tank documentaries.

[burg4401]

hahaha br Decompression....people asked for more tiers, they got it, they changed the brs of tanks so you still fight almost the same as you did before.

Please stop with this spam as what do you think they will do if they did do what you ask?
They will change vehicles brs so you will still fight the same.......

Your spam has got to the point that even when you do type something interesting that as soon as you say it i stop reading what you have said and move onto the next comment.

And you are yet again trying to change the subject.