Unbalanced modern tanks and why.

[isomorphic_projection]

I had an idea, the possible reason why modern tanks are unbalanced. Cause it's a Russian made game. It's not like that they can call the USA, asking everything about their tanks. And how to balance them ingame. So if someone, knows real life info about how to balance it all better. Guess what, bad idea to post it here. As an American you could get a visit, from the NSA.

[saymyname]

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

Originally posted by isomorphic_projection:

Cause it's a Russian made game. It's not like that they can call the USA, asking everything about their tanks.

https://warthunder.com/en/news/5782-development-to-minnesota-for-the-abrams-en

Clearly an espionage operation comrade xaxaxaxxaxaxaxa

Lol seriously, who thinks that Russia even gives a ♥♥♥♥ about Abrams first/second generation depleted uranium armor, when they have T14 today.

They also probably knew ages before.

[kamikazi21358]

Originally posted by SAY_MY_NAME:

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

https://warthunder.com/en/news/5782-development-to-minnesota-for-the-abrams-en

Clearly an espionage operation comrade xaxaxaxxaxaxaxa

Lol seriously, who thinks that Russia even gives a ♥♥♥♥ about Abrams first/second generation depleted uranium armor, when they have T14 today.

They also probably knew ages before.

They did have estimates, and they had shells rated to kill Abrams as well. Armor on many MBTs is weird and inaccurate now, but in general Rank 6 is just unrealistic. Russia doesn’t get their historical ammunition, all in game 125mm shells are ‘70s only, despite the T-64B in game being 1984, T-80B in game 1985, and the new T-72A which also has completely unhistorical ammunition as well being 1979, 1983 with the upgrade.

But as an example though, based on their estimates of the M1’s armor, the 3BM42 “Mango” 125mm round is actually designed to kill an Abrams at ‘all combat ranges’. So they had some estimates on what they could do.

[Obamenau]

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

Originally posted by SAY_MY_NAME:

Clearly an espionage operation comrade xaxaxaxxaxaxaxa

Lol seriously, who thinks that Russia even gives a ♥♥♥♥ about Abrams first/second generation depleted uranium armor, when they have T14 today.

They also probably knew ages before.

They did have estimates, and they had shells rated to kill Abrams as well. Armor on many MBTs is weird and inaccurate now, but in general Rank 6 is just unrealistic. Russia doesn’t get their historical ammunition, all in game 125mm shells are ‘70s only, despite the T-64B in game being 1984, T-80B in game 1985, and the new T-72A which also has completely unhistorical ammunition as well being 1979, 1983 with the upgrade.

But as an example though, based on their estimates of the M1’s armor, the 3BM42 “Mango” 125mm round is actually designed to kill an Abrams at ‘all combat ranges’. So they had some estimates on what they could do.

Gaijin has officially stated ammo is being used for soft balance.
I don't have issues with that. It keeps armor relevant.

Though of course it far from perfects with chally getting practice shells.

[Obamenau]

Originally posted by isomorphic_projection:

I know i am right. 24/7

> Provides no counterevidence whatsoever

Sure kid.

And earth is flat and climate change doesn't exist.

If you give evidence to prove me wrong, me, an intellectual, am just going to call it fake so can keep being right forever.

[saymyname]

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

They did have estimates, and they had shells rated to kill Abrams as well. Armor on many MBTs is weird and inaccurate now, but in general Rank 6 is just unrealistic. Russia doesn’t get their historical ammunition, all in game 125mm shells are ‘70s only, despite the T-64B in game being 1984, T-80B in game 1985, and the new T-72A which also has completely unhistorical ammunition as well being 1979, 1983 with the upgrade.

But as an example though, based on their estimates of the M1’s armor, the 3BM42 “Mango” 125mm round is actually designed to kill an Abrams at ‘all combat ranges’. So they had some estimates on what they could do.

Gaijin has officially stated ammo is being used for soft balance.
I don't have issues with that. It keeps armor relevant.

Though of course it far from perfects with chally getting practice shells.

Fixing apds Chieftains and making Chally 1's 10-11 br and Chally 2 11-12 would fix that.

[Obamenau]

Originally posted by SAY_MY_NAME:

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Gaijin has officially stated ammo is being used for soft balance.
I don't have issues with that. It keeps armor relevant.

Though of course it far from perfects with chally getting practice shells.

Fixing apds Chieftains and making Chally 1's 10-11 br and Chally 2 11-12 would fix that.

Don't get your hopes up for chally 2 though. Brits are being extremely secretive about its stats ( probably to hide how outdated it is)


That being said I dont think there was an APDS buff on the dev server was there?

[kamikazi21358]

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Originally posted by SAY_MY_NAME:

Fixing apds Chieftains and making Chally 1's 10-11 br and Chally 2 11-12 would fix that.

Don't get your hopes up for chally 2 though. Brits are being extremely secretive about its stats ( probably to hide how outdated it is)


That being said I dont think there was an APDS buff on the dev server was there?

It’s one of the examples of why I don’t think they should go full ‘90s. Mk.3 with better sources for it’s armor should be fine for top tier.

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

They did have estimates, and they had shells rated to kill Abrams as well. Armor on many MBTs is weird and inaccurate now, but in general Rank 6 is just unrealistic. Russia doesn’t get their historical ammunition, all in game 125mm shells are ‘70s only, despite the T-64B in game being 1984, T-80B in game 1985, and the new T-72A which also has completely unhistorical ammunition as well being 1979, 1983 with the upgrade.

But as an example though, based on their estimates of the M1’s armor, the 3BM42 “Mango” 125mm round is actually designed to kill an Abrams at ‘all combat ranges’. So they had some estimates on what they could do.

Gaijin has officially stated ammo is being used for soft balance.
I don't have issues with that. It keeps armor relevant.

Though of course it far from perfects with chally getting practice shells.

I am fine with that, only if it’s in the short term. In the future when the full Cold War era is modeled in, all tanks should have their historical ammunition loadout.

[saymyname]

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Originally posted by SAY_MY_NAME:

Fixing apds Chieftains and making Chally 1's 10-11 br and Chally 2 11-12 would fix that.

Don't get your hopes up for chally 2 though. Brits are being extremely secretive about its stats ( probably to hide how outdated it is)

And that changes nothing because more than accurate estimations are already known and around..

Wt slaps a "composite armor" tag and insert the protection value, it is already like this with all vehicles.

What is actually being protected is the in depht armor composition.

[Happyguy22]

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Originally posted by SAY_MY_NAME:

Fixing apds Chieftains and making Chally 1's 10-11 br and Chally 2 11-12 would fix that.

Don't get your hopes up for chally 2 though. Brits are being extremely secretive about its stats ( probably to hide how outdated it is)

Roughly equal to M1A1. A2 and Black Knight (Newest experimental tonk from Brition) are fairly similar, yet I'd judge that all the Black Knight is a bog standard one with a computer strapped to it and a stolenborrowed Iron Fist; I'd say UK has caught up to the USA at this point, as with the Russians until the T-14 proves its abilities
BAE systems is Black Knight, from what I know Rhinemetal is also producing a prototype to show off. For sake of evidence:
https://www.forces.net/news/challenger-2-battle-tank-transform-warfare
https://www.baesystems.com/en/black-night-unveiled

But I digress. The reason behind the unbalance at top tier is due to several reasons; poor data as most tanks are still classified; mixed player skill; poor balancing and low player number.
These are the main issues I feel are behind top tier.

[Obamenau]

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Don't get your hopes up for chally 2 though. Brits are being extremely secretive about its stats ( probably to hide how outdated it is)


That being said I dont think there was an APDS buff on the dev server was there?

It’s one of the examples of why I don’t think they should go full ‘90s. Mk.3 with better sources for it’s armor should be fine for top tier.

Do these sources exist though? From all I've seen I'm having serious doubts the challengers armor was sp much better IRL.

The mk3 should get a better shell though. It deserves that for being so sow and vulnerable. The mk3 can be the makeshift TD of top tier .

Originally posted by kamikazi21358:

I am fine with that, only if it’s in the short term. In the future when the full Cold War era is modeled in, all tanks should have their historical ammunition loadout.

They already don't really do it for ww2 tanks. Is it really worth the hassle?
Tons of rebalancing would be needed for which I'm not all a that confident with gaijin.

[Obamenau]

Originally posted by SAY_MY_NAME:

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Don't get your hopes up for chally 2 though. Brits are being extremely secretive about its stats ( probably to hide how outdated it is)

And that changes nothing because more than accurate estimations are already known and around..

Wt slaps a "composite armor" tag and insert the protection value, it is already like this with all vehicles.

For the more prominent vehicles gaijin does seem to rely on documents ( abrams, type 90, Leo,
T64s) . For the Challenger 2 there is simply nothing.

[saymyname]

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Originally posted by SAY_MY_NAME:

And that changes nothing because more than accurate estimations are already known and around..

Wt slaps a "composite armor" tag and insert the protection value, it is already like this with all vehicles.

For the more prominent vehicles gaijin does seem to rely on documents ( abrams, type 90, Leo,
T64s) . For the Challenger 2 there is simply nothing.

The whole "hurr durr documents" thing is just Gaijin reeeeeeing to convince there's some actual in depht research.
Gaijin relies so much in "documents" that every patch new vehicle inaccuracies are brought up by dedicated user threads that magically have this "top secret" data.

Truth is that the only thing tank manifacturers keep secret is the production and composition of that "composite armor" you see in game, not ke resistance or whatnot.
Again, not a single data currently displayed for Tier VI tanks wouldn't be avaiable for Challenger 2.

[Obamenau]

Originally posted by Happyguy22:

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Don't get your hopes up for chally 2 though. Brits are being extremely secretive about its stats ( probably to hide how outdated it is)

Roughly equal to M1A1. A2 and Black Knight (Newest experimental tonk from Brition) are fairly similar, yet I'd judge that all the Black Knight is a bog standard one with a computer strapped to it and a stolenborrowed Iron Fist; I'd say UK has caught up to the USA at this point, as with the Russians until the T-14 proves its abilities
BAE systems is Black Knight, from what I know Rhinemetal is also producing a prototype to show off. For sake of evidence:
https://www.forces.net/news/challenger-2-battle-tank-transform-warfare
https://www.baesystems.com/en/black-night-unveiled

I'm sorry but have read quite a bit on the chally 2 so I have to jump in quickly.

Black knight is a pretty desperate attempt to modernise the challenger.
If you look at it The challenger 2 is lacking seriously behind abrams and Leopard 2.
Im going to quickly give a few reasons.

- outdated gun, L55 Rheinmetall is superior to it.
- 70 tons weight with only 1200 hp engine give it a serious mobility disadvantage
- Lack of modern modular armor arrays, the abrams and leo 2 have received several upgrades to their composite arrays in the past decades, whilst challengers last one dates from the 90s.
-ammo storage, Challenger 2 still lacks blowout panels

I don't hate Britain foe some reason but this is just how it is. I'm not doubting the gunnery and other skills of British crews but MBT development by the British gov has simply been slacking in the past decades. Ive also heard their vehicle fleet is not in a great state.

[saymyname]

Originally posted by Mindstream:

Originally posted by Happyguy22:

Roughly equal to M1A1. A2 and Black Knight (Newest experimental tonk from Brition) are fairly similar, yet I'd judge that all the Black Knight is a bog standard one with a computer strapped to it and a stolenborrowed Iron Fist; I'd say UK has caught up to the USA at this point, as with the Russians until the T-14 proves its abilities
BAE systems is Black Knight, from what I know Rhinemetal is also producing a prototype to show off. For sake of evidence:
https://www.forces.net/news/challenger-2-battle-tank-transform-warfare
https://www.baesystems.com/en/black-night-unveiled

I'm sorry but have read quite a bit on the chally 2 so I have to jump in quickly.

Black knight is a pretty desperate attempt to modernise the challenger.
If you look at it The challenger 2 is lacking seriously behind abrams and Leopard 2.
Im going to quickly give a few reasons.

- outdated gun, L55 Rheinmetall is superior to it.
- 70 tons weight with only 1200 hp engine give it a serious mobility disadvantage
- Lack of modern modular armor arrays, the abrams and leo 2 have received several upgrades to their composite arrays in the past decades, whilst challengers last one dates from the 90s.
-ammo storage, Challenger 2 still lacks blowout panels

I don't hate Britain foe some reason but this is just how it is. I'm not doubting the gunnery and other skills of British crews but MBT development by the British gov has simply been slacking in the past decades. Ive also heard their vehicle fleet is not in a great state.

It's not like the Abrams is getting the L/55 with the new SEP package either, the only tanks that are doing/already have that are Leopard 2a7 (already a thing) and a turkish mbt

[Obamenau]

Originally posted by SAY_MY_NAME:

Originally posted by Mindstream:

For the more prominent vehicles gaijin does seem to rely on documents ( abrams, type 90, Leo,
T64s) . For the Challenger 2 there is simply nothing.

The whole "hurr durr documents" thing is just Gaijin reeeeeeing to convince there's some actual in depht research.
Gaijin relies so much in "documents" that every patch new vehicle inaccuracies are brought up by dedicated user threads that magically have this "top secret" data.

Truth is that the only thing tank manifacturers keep secret is the production and composition of that "composite armor" you see in game, not ke resistance or whatnot.
Again, not a single data currently displayed for Tier VI tanks wouldn't be avaiable for Challenger 2.

Well what they have provided is very convincing.
Especially the Abrams is very well modeled.

Of course documents don't reveal everything so there are going to be innacuracies.

Can you tell me what are these big offenders in current top tier vehicles? I have many issues with these vehicles, but innacurate stats is almost never one of them.