Why is the Stug 3 F a 3.7?

[John Helldiver]

It has the same gun as the panzer 4 F2, like the panzer 4 F2 it can be penned from the front by pretty much anything at the tier, its easier to one shot since 3 of the 4 crew members are perfectly lined up with nothing between them and its a case tank destroyer. In a nutshell its just a worse F2 so why is it in 3.7?

[Stridswombat]

I was talking about the Stug in case it wasn't obvious enough but it really applies to any tank. It's always going to be more reliable to penetrate flatter armour than anything with an irregular shape.

Even the M10 get bounces on its turret due to the thin but highly angled turret sides.

[Ckasaron]

The StuG III F is hard to spot and its actually faster than people give it credit for. Plus until the Jumbo 75, the gun just lolpens anything and everything it sees, maybe once in awhile a KV-1 (ZiS-5) or much more rarely a KV-1E would give it some trouble but that's about it.

The StuG III F is really 4.0 or 4.3 material in RB.

The big issue with early midtiers is that German long 75mm and long 50mm gun platforms are vastly undertiered, and their ability to cut through things like butter is what's pushing down early T-34s, early Shermans, and Cromwells.

The only thing that'd fix this is buffing APCR (and preferably APDS, HEAT, and HEATFS while we're at it). APCR should spall the same or better when it pens and not be a mostly useless needle. With that one change, that would completely bring the "TopKek40" into line with the 76mm M1, the 17pdr (w/o APDS), the 75mm Type 5 Model II firing Type 4 Kou, the 85mm D-5T, and the 85mm ZiS-5-53.

Panzer IV and StuGs are only slightly worse platforms than late Shermans, T-34-85s, and various 17pdr things. The F2 and H should be 4.3, the G 4.7, the StuG F 4.3, the StuG G 4.7, and the J/Bfw IV at 4.0 where they are now.

This means that now the overcompressed 1.7-3.0 things can finally stop seeing long 75 spam or if they see it at all its just the Panzer IV J with crap turret traverse.

The FlakBus and Dicker Max are fine where they are, and the Sturer Emil actually needs to drop to 4.7 as its barely any better than the Max. Slower, marginally better penning gun, bigger target, marginally better armored (enough to stop SPAAG), double the reload time, similarly nuclear postpen.

[Pacipoodillie]

It wasn't very obvious since I had mentioned the M10 in my comment just before yours, I guessed you were talking about either that or the 3G/StuH but I was wrong about both according to the guy who said you were talking about the A/F. The M10's turret sides have a much more severe angle head-on than any of the StuGs/StuH though.

Originally posted by Mirage:

F2 is the better vehicle, and it also gets addon armor which adds another 20mm.
It does have a slightly higher profile making it a bit easier to hit, but that's hardly worth mentioning when it has a turret where the Stug does not obviously.

J offers nothing over the G version. and should be 0.3 lower than the H atleast. Just like the Panther D gets 0.3 lower compared to the other Panthers for it's abysmal turret rotation.

Why the H is higher than both the J and G though I don't get.. seemingly has no advantage and lacks the smoke that G does get.

Back on OP topic, I agree the 3F should be at the same br of the F2 or lower. The F2 has a turret allowing for 360 degrees instead of a 20 degree forward firing cone, slightly better depression on a taller chassis allowing the F2 to fire from behind cover in a hull down position, it has the ability to engulf itself in smoke even though it doesn't have a launcher or any other apparent apparatus to deploy smoke and the add-on track armor which honestly isn't that much of a benefit as, like the IV G, only covers the front of the hull and only covers about 50/60% of the hull face while leaving the 50mm turret face unprotected. Also the J has a couple bonuses over the G, someone mentioned earlier a 2mm pen increase due to a longer gun which really doesn't make or break anything considering the german long barrel 75 has enough penetration in it's earliest form to combat many brs, the HEAT skirt which also isn't super helpful as most people don't use HEAT rounds at the moment and if someone were using HEAT they'd likely shoot your chassis rather than your turret, especially if they had flanked you. The add-on track armor on the J also covers the turret slightly but the 15mm segments aren't enough to stop anything at 4.0.

[saymyname]

Originally posted by Mirage:

F2 is the better vehicle, and it also gets addon armor which adds another 20mm.
It does have a slightly higher profile making it a bit easier to hit, but that's hardly worth mentioning when it has a turret where the Stug does not obviously.

J offers nothing over the G version. and should be 0.3 lower than the H atleast. Just like the Panther D gets 0.3 lower compared to the other Panthers for it's abysmal turret rotation.

Why the H is higher than both the J and G though I don't get.. seemingly has no advantage and lacks the smoke that G does get.

That 2 extra mm of penetration boiii 1!1!1!111!11!11!!

[kiro the avenger!]

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

It has the ability to engulf itself in smoke even though it doesn't have a launcher or any other apparent apparatus to deploy smoke

The box on the back left of the tank is a smoke discharger rack.

[Pacipoodillie]

Originally posted by Astragon672:

...

The StuGs and StuH have a low profile I'll give you that but they are by no means quick vehicles. A properly angled KV, even the L-11 and S you don't mention for whatever reason, can bounce the majority of rounds sent their way and the Jumbo? Unless you want to try your luck with a long distance MG port shot you're going to have to wait until they position themselves poorly or bump yourself to 4.3 and play with the Dicker Max. What you're suggesting is that all german mainline vehicles be bumped a full br because early shermans (historically death traps) don't hold up against them? That also seems to ignore that bumping those would practically create a 2.7 american Jumbo in the form of the M4A3 105, except unlike the jumbo the 105 has a more prominent weak spot to its frontal armor. If you bump the long 75s and the 50s up the only thing to contend with shermans/cromwells/t-34s are HEAT spamming short 75s and short 50mm guns that can't pen the angled armor of a t-34 or sherman. In balancing you have to consider all factors of a tank not just the gun mounted on the chassis, german tanks are very lightly armored compared to the tanks they should be facing and there are no german heavy tanks until 5.7. Unless you have the KV-1E/B/756r, captured Churchill 3 or late model captured KV-2 which sit 4.0, 4.0, 5.0, 4.0, and 4.3 respectively.

[Pacipoodillie]

Originally posted by kiro the avenger!:

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

It has the ability to engulf itself in smoke even though it doesn't have a launcher or any other apparent apparatus to deploy smoke

The box on the back left of the tank is a smoke discharger rack.

Which box?[puu.sh]

[Katokevin]

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

Originally posted by kiro the avenger!:

The box on the back left of the tank is a smoke discharger rack.

Which box?[puu.sh]

They don't stick out the bottom (like say a P40 Leoncello), but sit horzontally inside and would be dropped down.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523408603

Edit: Looking from the inside, it looks like they are modeled in a way they would be fired or pushed out. Either way, that's where they sit.

[Pacipoodillie]

Ooh I see, I wish they'd make a hangar feature that allows a cross section view of a tank.

[Katokevin]

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

Ooh I see, I wish they'd make a hangar feature that allows a cross section view of a tank.

I think it should be part of the x-ray. Once you have the mod, have an x-ray model of where the launcher is at least since it can varry quite a bit from a box, a turret mounted internal launcher, exposed launchers, etc. so you can see where it launches from.

Considering the details they even show for the main gun stats in the x-ray, I think smoke launchers (if given an x-ray model) could show you how many are in the launcher and how many launch each time you fire it.

[saymyname]

I just wish they removed that useless mg port for the G version.

OFC pretty much defeats the whole low silouette TD thing for no purpose, and you can easily tell from distance where is the driver port if the barrel is concealed thanks to it.

Then at least the G version would be fine.

Stug 3 f needs to be 3.3, that is not questionable.
And still the Marder 3 h with better gun, mobility and traverse will probably still offer much more in a 3.0 deck

[Pacipoodillie]

Originally posted by SAY_MY_NAME:

I just wish they removed that useless mg port for the G version.

Well Gaijin can't change the models of the vehicles, that would be unfair. Eventually no tank would have an exposed turret ring, commander's cupola, or cheeks. Although it is odd the disparity between armor models for example the driver port on most early german tanks nor the MG port are modelled into the armor until the tiger, the SMK despite having basically an extended KV chassis doesn't have it's driver port modelled when the other KVs do, the M4A1 has an overlap between the upper plate and the plate that covers the transmission but the M4A1 76 doesn't have that overlap modelled.

[Katokevin]

Originally posted by Pacificatore:

Originally posted by SAY_MY_NAME:

I just wish they removed that useless mg port for the G version.

Well Gaijin can't change the models of the vehicles, that would be unfair. Eventually no tank would have an exposed turret ring, commander's cupola, or cheeks. Although it is odd the disparity between armor models for example the driver port on most early german tanks nor the MG port are modelled into the armor until the tiger, the SMK despite having basically an extended KV chassis doesn't have it's driver port modelled when the other KVs do, the M4A1 has an overlap between the upper plate and the plate that covers the transmission but the M4A1 76 doesn't have that overlap modelled.

Update the models and simply re-model it with the MG port folded down like it actually could (hell, the hinges to fold it down and handle to pull it back up are clearly visable). Nobody is asking for huge changes like making a turret ring or copula removed or hidden, but simply update the models that have seen little change since tanks were introduced. Just some nice fixes to old models is all I would ask for.

Hell, the last thing to recieve any real update to its model is the T32, and that was just a visual change to look nicer and have the dust cover over the mantlet. I'd love an update where they just focus on fixing errors in models and armor not specifically modeled (like the ones you mentioned). The Leopard 2A4 being a great example, it has no damn turret ring in the x-ray model and it's one of the newest tanks to WT!

[Pacipoodillie]

Originally posted by Katokevin:

...

Ahh, misunderstood again. Not the MG port of the IV G but the MG gunshield on top of the StuG 3G/StuH, yeah it's strange that it's in an upright position without a machinegun but those antennae are pretty bad for concealment at times aswell. I would say the a lot of the armor needs tweaking and adjusting as well as adjusting the armor rating for internal modules. Or at the very least show some metric in the hangar for equivalent protection of interior modules. Would be nice to know how much armor russian fuel tanks are worth and whether or not some tanks have radiators made of solid steel in place of something that would actually dissipate heat. As for late tiered vehicles I can't really attest to armor inaccuracies I really enjoy playing below 5.7, but I do see that the 2A4 doesn't have a turret ring even though it has a turret. Strange that wouldn't have been patched immediately after release unless ofcourse the turret ring of the 2A4 is actually not your average mechanical device but rather some kind of futuristic frictionless, magnetic rail /s.

[John Helldiver]

The 4 H should NOT be 4.3, its just a 4 G with no grenade launchers and with some HEAT skirts that are second to useless, i think it belongs in 3.7 along with the panzer 4 J, the 4 G i feel like its fine at 4.0 because of the 66mm grenade launchers that actually help specially when you are capturing one of those objectives with no cover.