Why is APDS damage so much worse than APFSDS damage?

[Stridswombat]

So I keep hearing APFSDS is doing much better than APDS that sucks right now. Why is this the case? Aren't they both basically thin dart projectiles with a high velocity? I don't see why one sucks so much and not the other.

[Thunderhawk]

Well apfsdfs mostly has a higher muzzle velocity due to it's smaller diameter.

[RedSector73]

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/395735-apds-and-apfsds-whats-the-difference/

try reading

[👑Varliakaralius🐸]

balancing i think, in reality if a tank was hit (and penetrated) the crew would get out asap (even if the vehicle could still be operated), there is no good way of knowing if the shell hit amunition, fuel lines, engine, controlls, etc.

[Stridswombat]

So basically APFSDS has no reason to cause more shrapnel, it just does... Despite having less mass than APDS. So really it should be reversed with APDS causing more shrapnel due to the larger mass, but because Warthunder logic it doesn't. That doesn't sound right at all.

[Spicy Meatball]

Many players in WT are convinced that for all purposes velocity is better than mass. Just look at how bad and unrealistic the air balance became because people whinged about .50cal muzzle velocity. Post-pen damage against any target should be greater with more mass and explosive filler.

[Kay]

Originally posted by AK Rowling:

So basically APFSDS has no reason to cause more shrapnel, it just does... Despite having less mass than APDS. So really it should be reversed with APDS causing more shrapnel due to the larger mass, but because Warthunder logic it doesn't. That doesn't sound right at all.

It's due to the length of the rod, and the (usually) more powerful guns. APDS doesn't cause the spalling it really should, but it should cause less than APFSDS (though by a much smaller margin)

The length helps the penetrator deal with sloped armour (and as such means there's more energy after penetration/more energy to put into spall/shrapnel)

[Kay]

Originally posted by Dragoon:

Many players in WT are convinced that for all purposes velocity is better than mass. Just look at how bad and unrealistic the air balance became because people whinged about .50cal muzzle velocity. Post-pen damage against any target should be greater with more mass and explosive filler.

depends.

KE scales better with velocity than mass, WAY more so, with only half of the mass and the square of the velocity in fact, so you get a shell with far more KE if it is made faster, than if you made it heavier.

[Katokevin]

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

Originally posted by AK Rowling:

So basically APFSDS has no reason to cause more shrapnel, it just does... Despite having less mass than APDS. So really it should be reversed with APDS causing more shrapnel due to the larger mass, but because Warthunder logic it doesn't. That doesn't sound right at all.

It's due to the length of the rod, and the (usually) more powerful guns. APDS doesn't cause the spalling it really should, but it should cause less than APFSDS (though by a much smaller margin)

The length helps the penetrator deal with sloped armour (and as such means there's more energy after penetration/more energy to put into spall/shrapnel)

APFSDS can cause quite a lot of spalling. It was typical for 3BM-15 for the 115mm to create an average of 150 - 200 fragments when overmatching armor 100mm to 200mm in the LoS thickness. Fragments typically traveled in a 110 degree cone and able to penetrate about 3-6mm of aluminium. Though fragments able to penetrate at least 30mm of aluminium at the same overmatch for said round was only an average of 2 pieces in a 20 degree cone.

APDS should still fragment a lot more though. Even more so at angles, the core tends to start breaking up while penetrating from the asymmetrical stress and breaks apart when exiting from the built up stress.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1437588134
Ya, not something that's going to go in and do nothing at all like it does now.

[Kay]

Originally posted by Katokevin:

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

It's due to the length of the rod, and the (usually) more powerful guns. APDS doesn't cause the spalling it really should, but it should cause less than APFSDS (though by a much smaller margin)

The length helps the penetrator deal with sloped armour (and as such means there's more energy after penetration/more energy to put into spall/shrapnel)

APFSDS can cause quite a lot of spalling. It was typical for 3BM-15 for the 115mm to create an average of 150 - 200 fragments when overmatching armor 100mm to 200mm in the LoS thickness. Fragments typically traveled in a 110 degree cone and able to penetrate about 3-6mm of aluminium. Though fragments able to penetrate at least 30mm of aluminium at the same overmatch for said round was only an average of 2 pieces in a 20 degree cone.

APDS should still fragment a lot more though. Even more so at angles, the core tends to start breaking up while penetrating from the asymmetrical stress and breaks apart when exiting from the built up stress.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1437588134
Ya, not something that's going to go in and do nothing at all like it does now.

I fully agree, thanks for the information and picture, hopefully something will actually get done about this (somehow doubt it, but hey)

[NAF-5th.Legion-Waffen.Div]

APDS is underperforming as hell.

[Spicy Meatball]

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

Originally posted by Dragoon:

Many players in WT are convinced that for all purposes velocity is better than mass. Just look at how bad and unrealistic the air balance became because people whinged about .50cal muzzle velocity. Post-pen damage against any target should be greater with more mass and explosive filler.

depends.

KE scales better with velocity than mass, WAY more so, with only half of the mass and the square of the velocity in fact, so you get a shell with far more KE if it is made faster, than if you made it heavier.

Which is all well and good for making the penetration in the first place which I didn't deny, but once inside it lacks the diameter and mass to damage things not directly in the path. Too much pen and it will go clean through and not inflict it's full KE damage.

[Kay]

Originally posted by Dragoon:

Originally posted by Ki'agh:

depends.

KE scales better with velocity than mass, WAY more so, with only half of the mass and the square of the velocity in fact, so you get a shell with far more KE if it is made faster, than if you made it heavier.

Which is all well and good for making the penetration in the first place which I didn't deny, but once inside it lacks the diameter and mass to damage things not directly in the path. Too much pen and it will go clean through and not inflict it's full KE damage.

Yeah, but more kinetic energy means there's more energy to give to the plate/shrapnel, or fragments of the round if/when it breaks up.

Yes, it's worse for thin armour, but should be far better for thick armour, and the diameters (at least for early APFSDS) aren't actually that much different from what I've seen.

[O Pai!]

Theres a lot of stuff on Gaijin forums proving that APDS has a bigger damage cone and that the superheated chunks of metal from spalling should ignite ammo and do a lot more damage, but since then the only thing they did was... nerf APDS... really Gaijin?

[Happyguy22]

Because ♥♥♥♥ logic.

[A Toaster]

apds has always been ♥♥♥♥