War Thunder

War Thunder

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Bukkacracy 2018 年 4 月 30 日 下午 9:26
My impressions of the F-86F-25 after fighting nonstop Germans
It's identically placed compared to a CL-13 but worse in every single way.

Less thrust
Climbs slower
Slower turns/roll
Harder to get in the research tree
Costs twice as much to buy/train/repair

And here's the worst part...

Its an American plane and being American means you never get Germany on your team. So 90% of the time you're playing against Germans with their CL-13's and since they're so popular 50%+ of German teams are just CL-13's. I've had games where a CL-13 just outran everyone to run out the tickets and there was nothing our team of F-86F-25's and 2's could even do

Its like you grind twice as many lions, and spend all that time in a longer research tree just to get a less functioning version of a CL-13. Japanese F-85F-30 players must feel my pain too but I guess some matches they at least get to fight alongside the the CL-13waffe rather than against.

My advice? Don't waste your time or Silver Lions. I sure regret doing it. If anything the CL-13 should be the 2mil Lions aircraft.
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正在显示第 16 - 25 条,共 25 条留言
Lain 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 6:12 
引用自 Eftwyrd
no because the US didnt make the cl13, the canaadians did and they legitimatly made it better than US versions of the same airframe... what are you even proposing? that every time anyone threatens US superiority they should get a better aircraft to to maintain their lead?
No, because every other nation has a unique jet. The UK and USSR have the Hunter and MiG-17, arguably some of the fastest jets in game. The Germans get both the MiG-15bis and CL-13. The US gets a worse CL-13 with cannons that spark and have limited ammo. What about the F-25? Again, a worse CL-13. Why not just give the Germans a similar Sabre to what the US has? I don't want the US to be superior, I want them to be competitive, and it doesn't help when half of the USSR/German teams at top tier are CL-13s. Why do you think they're spammed out so much? Because they're way better. You can ask anyone knowledged on top tier, and they can explain this better to you.
Eftwyrd 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 6:24 
引用自 Rootin Tootin Putin
引用自 Eftwyrd
no because the US didnt make the cl13, the canaadians did and they legitimatly made it better than US versions of the same airframe... what are you even proposing? that every time anyone threatens US superiority they should get a better aircraft to to maintain their lead?
No, because every other nation has a unique jet. The UK and USSR have the Hunter and MiG-17, arguably some of the fastest jets in game. The Germans get both the MiG-15bis and CL-13. The US gets a worse CL-13 with cannons that spark and have limited ammo. What about the F-25? Again, a worse CL-13. Why not just give the Germans a similar Sabre to what the US has? I don't want the US to be superior, I want them to be competitive, and it doesn't help when half of the USSR/German teams at top tier are CL-13s. Why do you think they're spammed out so much? Because they're way better. You can ask anyone knowledged on top tier, and they can explain this better to you.
you are seriously hating on the germans getting the 15bis while complaining about the US having multiple inferior versions of the sabre.. the germans have two choices mate and onnly one of them is at the top of the meta... i should be complaining the east germans operated the mig17 so why cant we have that too, the 15bis should hardly be contentious...

give the germans a similar sabre you say, thats exacty what they have, they only operated the cl13 mk5 (we have ingame) and the cl13 mk 6 (the best sabre varient ever produced) so take your pick... if the cl13 wasnt visually the same as the US aircraft would you be complaining so much? its a completely different aircraft built on the same airframe and just happens to be better, thats all, but there will always be better and worse aircraft
最后由 Eftwyrd 编辑于; 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 6:25
Lain 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 6:38 
引用自 Eftwyrd
-SNIPPITY SNOOP-
The 15bis is fine, because it's exactly the same as the one in the Soviet tree, and it can actually do well in top tier since it doesn't have to fight against CL-13s. Sabres are the meta right now, they can do everything well, and as you put it, it just "so happens it's better." The US, nor any other nation, has anything comparable to the CL-13. Why should one nation get a better aircraft, what ever happened to "balance"? They very well could've given the Germans the CL-13 Mk 2, which has the same engine as the Sabre, but they decided to go with the Mk 5, which has better everything pretty much. Another classic example of power creep.
Eftwyrd 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 6:43 
引用自 Rootin Tootin Putin
引用自 Eftwyrd
-SNIPPITY SNOOP-
The 15bis is fine, because it's exactly the same as the one in the Soviet tree, and it can actually do well in top tier since it doesn't have to fight against CL-13s. Sabres are the meta right now, they can do everything well, and as you put it, it just "so happens it's better." The US, nor any other nation, has anything comparable to the CL-13. Why should one nation get a better aircraft, what ever happened to "balance"? They very well could've given the Germans the CL-13 Mk 2, which has the same engine as the Sabre, but they decided to go with the Mk 5, which has better everything pretty much. Another classic example of power creep.
so the 15bis is fine despite having to fight mig17s... double standard much

"Why should one nation get a better aircraft, what ever happened to "balance"?"
you are seriously asking this? aircraft are different, you say in an earlier sentence that sabres are meta right nnow and right there you have answered your own question, aircraft have different performance in various characteristics and invariably some characteristics will be valued more than others by players, there are meta aircraft at every teir

"They very well could've given the Germans the CL-13 Mk 2, which has the same engine as the Sabre"
thats a canadian aircraft the germans never operated, they had rather sparse pickings after the whole debacle of losing WW2 and the mk5 is the first variant they operated.

blame the canadians for building sabres better than the US did, or US for not building the best versions of their own airframe

EDIT: it was fine back before 50cals were buffed and they were considered bad on jets so the germans had the best flight performance but inconsistant killing potential and the US had the more reliable version in the F2, alot of people considered the cl13 bad back then and the F2 top dog, this is just karmic payback for what everyone else feels about 50cals at every other teir
最后由 Eftwyrd 编辑于; 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 6:51
Lain 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 6:56 
引用自 Eftwyrd
I never said the MiG-15bis fights MiG-17s, they're on the same team. Let's not make strawman arguments.

So your excuse for imbalance is essentially "aircraft will have different performance" "the meta" and "aircraft are different".

Where is your source on them using the Mk 5 as the first operational aircraft? I can't seem to find info on this, all it says is they used the CL-13.

But I'm done arguing, I've never been very good at it and I can see this is just gonna be back and forth with no conclusion. No hard feelings.
最后由 Lain 编辑于; 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 7:01
Eftwyrd 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 7:08 
引用自 Rootin Tootin Putin
引用自 Eftwyrd
I never said the MiG-15bis fights MiG-17s, they're on the same team. Let's not make strawman arguments.

So your excuse for imbalance is essentially "aircraft will have different performance" "the meta" and "aircraft are different", nice. But when it comes to something like top tier tanks, if something performs better it must be fixed, but in aircraft it's fine because "they perform differently", and you call me out for double standards..

Where is your source on them using the Mk 5 as the first operational aircraft? I can't seem to find info on this, all it says is they used the CL-13.

But I'm done arguing, I've never been very good at it and I can see this is just gonna be back and forth with no conclusion. No hard feelings.
its not double standards. you have less complaints about the hunter and 17 because they are different aricraft and perform differently, the canadair sabres are different to their US cousins and perform differently too even if they look the same, you wouldnt be complaining so hard if they looked as different on the outside as they were on the inside, the US just didnt happen to produce or operate the best version of their own airframe and unfortunatly happen to be the worse off here but someone has to lose... no two aircraft are allike and there are winners and losers comparing aircraft at every rating, this is not unique to your sabres

wikipedia is a quick and dirty source, look up canadair sabres and scroll down to operators, its says right there.

if you want something more:
When the post-war Luftwaffe of the German Federal Republic was formed in September of 1956, plans called for the formation of several air defence day-fighter wings. The choice of a suitable aircraft was one of the lesser problems facing the new Luftwaffe. The best available type was clearly the Canadian-built Canadair Sabre 6, so 225 brand new examples of these great aircraft were ordered in December, 1956. These would be complemented by 75 Sabre 5s drawn from the Canadian Air Division as the RCAF upgraded its twelve Air Division squadrons to the Sabre 6.
source: http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/41/language/en-CA/Achtung-Saberjetz--Teaching-the-New-Luftwaffe.aspx

EDIT: and no germans and russians are not always allied and german mig15bis do have to face russian mig17s...
最后由 Eftwyrd 编辑于; 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 7:12
Bukkacracy 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 8:40 
引用自 Eftwyrd
its not double standards. you have less complaints about the hunter and 17 because they are different aricraft and perform differently, the canadair sabres are different to their US cousins and perform differently too even if they look the same, you wouldnt be complaining so hard if they looked as different on the outside as they were on the inside, the US just didnt happen to produce or operate the best version of their own airframe and unfortunatly happen to be the worse off here but someone has to lose... no two aircraft are allike and there are winners and losers comparing aircraft at every rating, this is not unique to your sabres
Not true. There is more to it than looks when both planes share the same flight and damage model, have identical armaments that are placed same, same effectiveness of airbrakes/flaps, and it even goes down to the strength of the landing gear. There is a lot more to it than just aesthetics.

Let me reframe my point and explain why that's important.

A Mig-17 will climb better than a Sabre while a Sabre will maneuver better in a dive. A Hunter will outfly Mig-17 when it comes to boom and zoom but a Hunter will never be able to turn with one. All matchups are like this.

There is in all cases some kind of trade-off where one plane has strengths in one area while being weak in another in any kind of matchup and it makes fighting in different scenarios interesting. As it stands since the CL-13 is an improved copy of the F-86F-25 the F-25 holds no advantage over a CL-13. So it doesn't matter if two players of similar skill are fighting eachother in these, the results of all random scenarios would always be in favor of one of the players due to the imbalance of the vehicles.

You can say other vehicles also don't perform as well but that's not the point. They at least have a niche where they excell in certain scenarios. Because of the way matchmaking is and the way players are flocking to the CL-13 because of how well it performs F-25's will constantly be facing CL-13's so it is pretty clear the F-25 has no niche and by design is not aloud to even have one unless by miracle they don't end up fighting the CL-13waffe.

That's not a good thing. Its just poor game design and being poor game design in the endgame makes it twice as bad so it's worth commenting on.
最后由 Bukkacracy 编辑于; 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 8:48
Eftwyrd 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 8:55 
引用自 Hreeb
You can say other vehicles also don't perform as well but that's not the point. They at least have a niche where they excell in certain scenarios. Because of the way matchmaking is and the way players are flocking to the CL-13 because of how well it performs F-25's will constantly be facing CL-13's so it is pretty clear the F-25 has no niche and by design is not aloud to even have one unless by miracle they don't end up fighting the CL-13waffe.

That's not a good thing. Its just poor game design and being poor game design in the endgame makes it twice as bad so it's worth commenting on.
the cl13 is no copy, besides its new engine it has reworked avionics including a 'stabilator' or 'all flying tail' completely different to the US sabres giving it much better handling.... you object to your US sabres not having a niche? unfortunatly the canadians just made a better aircraft than the US and it was the only aircraft the germans operated suitable for the game, the US isnt obligated to get the best version of the airframe just because they had the original and unfortunatly didnt have a version comparable to the canadair sabres... you want powercreep you could upgrade them both to the f86e6 / cl13 mk6 for actual parity... but the real world was never fair so no guaranties you are going to find equivilency for every other nation too

its not poor game design so much as karmic retribution... before the 50cal buff the meta split between the superior performing but inconsistent cl13 and the slightly lesser but far better armed F2 generally went in favour of the US.. its only with the massive buff to the rest of the US line that you are now suffering the reverse of what all other US aircraft are doing to their cannon armed counterparts. once the performance gap between cannons and heavy MGs is actually ballanced i would expect them to fall back into place
最后由 Eftwyrd 编辑于; 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 9:01
Bukkacracy 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 9:23 
Nobody in here is advocating for toning down the characteristics of the CL-13 to make it on par or, as you're making it seem, less effective than American Sabers. I don't know where you're getting that. Besides there are numerous ways to fix the balance of a vehicle without touching the way it plays. For instance you could adjust the BR or the teir, change the pricetag, or adjust the tree.

Also we're talking F-25's here, not F-2's. The is no retribution for CL-13 players over F-25 players over a .50 cal problem from months ago.
Eftwyrd 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 9:37 
引用自 Hreeb
Nobody in here is advocating for toning down the characteristics of the CL-13 to make it on par or, as you're making it seem, less effective than American Sabers. I don't know where you're getting that. Besides there are numerous ways to fix the balance of a vehicle without touching the way it plays. For instance you could adjust the BR or the teir, change the pricetag, or adjust the tree.

Also we're talking F-25's here, not F-2's. The is no retribution for CL-13 players over F-25 players over a .50 cal problem from months ago.
you seem to have missed the point of what i actually said, i in no way said tone down the cl13... there are two problems with it as it stands, it simply has better flight performance than any amercan produced sabre unless we powercreep them to the f86e6/cl13mk6 to give them identical aircraft, and its 50cals are overperformingin comparison to the cannons which used to keep its actual counterpart the F2 in contention. once the cannon/mg ballance which so blatantly favours US aircraft in most other cases (why i called it karmic retribution, its a joke mate...) i would expect the ballance between the actual endgame jets to be fall into place as it used to be

the fact that other sabres at max br too is just a problem of the br system, sure they could splinter the BRs but that just causes more problems as in the jet age it is hard enough to find aircraft to fit top-teir, let alone a much more spread out Br spectrum, so say you nerf the cl13 to a higher Br, this would limit them to 4 per match which the rest of the german lineup would have to be mostly made up of mig15bis (it would be the only other german jet in range), good luck finding enough players willing to play that. simply the performance increments between your many sabres are too minor and their spreading out the BRs just to cover them introduces too many issues with matchmaking so the lesser ones having the same BRs as their superior counterparts is just a bitter pill you are going to have to swallow due to havinng too many variants available

EDIT: honestly that got a bit too messy towards the end so tldr the BR system is at fault and generally works but the US has too many sabres for them to fit cleanly and noone else has enough jets to support seperate BRs for most of them
最后由 Eftwyrd 编辑于; 2018 年 5 月 1 日 下午 9:51
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发帖日期: 2018 年 4 月 30 日 下午 9:26
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