[DERAILED, PLEASE CLOSE]T-34-57 basic shot (BR-271) has 145mm of penetration AND MORE SHRAPNEL THAN THE GERMAN 88!

[Nica]

The t-34-57 at 4.3 can penetrate the front plate of the Tiger... at br5.3--- a 57mm gun can penetrate the frontal armor of a heavy tank 1.0 br higher... with a full size shot (BR-271).

Gajin, please fix.

Also, please fix the ball of death. This gun has max 14g of explosive mass for it's shells. it should NOT explode like a hecking nuke inside the tank

[Shard]

It could certainly go to 4.7.. but what exactly is your proposal?

[Jan Zizka of Trocnov]

So you want to remove one of the three tanks Russia can use to easily knock out a tiger in an uptier? Seems legit

[Nica]

Escrito originalmente por czartrak:

So you want to remove one of the three tanks Russia can use to easily knock out a tiger in an uptier? Seems legit

i want them to check the penetration charts for this thing. there is no way a 57mm full size shot can penetrate that much armor that far. these are propaganda numbers

especially when there are this kind of accounts of the tiger vs t34: https://www.reddit.com/r/BattlefieldV/comments/a2v445/tiger_kursk_1943_227_hits_by_at_rifles_14_hits_by/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAx57MHH7k

[Jan Zizka of Trocnov]

Escrito originalmente por Nica:

Escrito originalmente por czartrak:

So you want to remove one of the three tanks Russia can use to easily knock out a tiger in an uptier? Seems legit

i want them to check the penetration charts for this thing. there is no way a 57mm full size shot can penetrate that much armor that far. these are propaganda numbers

especially when there are this kind of accounts of the tiger vs t34: https://www.reddit.com/r/BattlefieldV/comments/a2v445/tiger_kursk_1943_227_hits_by_at_rifles_14_hits_by/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAx57MHH7k

Did you take into account that they abandoned historical pen many updates ago?

[Nica]

Escrito originalmente por czartrak:

Escrito originalmente por Nica:

i want them to check the penetration charts for this thing. there is no way a 57mm full size shot can penetrate that much armor that far. these are propaganda numbers

especially when there are this kind of accounts of the tiger vs t34: https://www.reddit.com/r/BattlefieldV/comments/a2v445/tiger_kursk_1943_227_hits_by_at_rifles_14_hits_by/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAx57MHH7k

Did you take into account that they abandoned historical pen many updates ago?

so what do they base their penetrations on now? personal bias?

[Dakota]

Escrito originalmente por Nica:

Escrito originalmente por czartrak:

Did you take into account that they abandoned historical pen many updates ago?

so what do they base their penetrations on now? personal bias?

They dropped potentially flawed pen charts of shells since most countries had different methods of determining the penetration in tests. In its place they used calculated pen values based off of the round's weight, velocity, filler, and type (cap, no cap, HVAP, APFSDS, etc) that can be used to mathematically determine the penetration that the round should have rather than physically determine it.

[Spicy Meatball]

While you may be right, Gaijin decided to use a penetration calculator to standardise all the values which accounts for the difference of how shells were tested and what was regarded as a penetrating hit. If you can prove that their values in the De Marre calculator are wrong then bug report it.

[Nica]

Escrito originalmente por Spicy Meatball:

While you may be right, Gaijin decided to use a penetration calculator to standardise all the values which accounts for the difference of how shells were tested and what was regarded as a penetrating hit. If you can prove that their values in the De Marre calculator are wrong then bug report it.

when historical accounts show that this shell cannot penetrate the frontal armor of the tiger... and simulation it can. HURRR DURRR 57MM CAN PENETRATE 130MM OF ARMOR AT 1000M BECAUSE "REASONS". maybe they should take their head out of their butt and re-examine how their penetration simulation works. Because a 57mm just cant penetrate that much armor.


and for the record, DeMarre needs a reference. Did they go out on a field day and shoot every single tank on every single panel with a reference gun? to see the penetration, i doubt they did. DeMarre is probably the WORST simulation for this kind of game. Those penetration values are WAY off

[Vloda]

Escrito originalmente por Nica:

Escrito originalmente por Spicy Meatball:

While you may be right, Gaijin decided to use a penetration calculator to standardise all the values which accounts for the difference of how shells were tested and what was regarded as a penetrating hit. If you can prove that their values in the De Marre calculator are wrong then bug report it.

when historical accounts show that this shell cannot penetrate the frontal armor of the tiger... and simulation it can. HURRR DURRR 57MM CAN PENETRATE 130MM OF ARMOR AT 1000M BECAUSE "REASONS". maybe they should take their head out of their butt and re-examine how their penetration simulation works. Because a 57mm just cant penetrate that much armor.


and for the record, DeMarre needs a reference. Did they go out on a field day and shoot every single tank on every single panel with a reference gun? to see the penetration, i doubt they did. DeMarre is probably the WORST simulation for this kind of game. Those penetration values are WAY off

Gaijin dropped realistic Pen values long ago, now theyre stuck with this balance bs.

[Slyke]

A quick comparison with a gun you don't seem to have any issues with.

Lengths:
57mm ZiS-4M - 74 calibers
57mm QF - 43 calibers

Shot mass:
57mm ZiS-4M - 3.14kg
57mm QF - 2.8 - 3.23kg

Muzzle velocity
57mm ZiS-4M - 990m/s
57mm QF - 853-801m/s

Penetration point blank:
57mm ZiS-4M - 145mm
57mm QF - 107-121mm

I don't know what else to tell you. Maybe look at your own personal bias and propaganda consumption habits.

P.S. That British gun is at 2.7 by the way, 2.6-3 BRs below your precious Tigers.

[Dakota]

Escrito originalmente por Nica:

Escrito originalmente por Spicy Meatball:

While you may be right, Gaijin decided to use a penetration calculator to standardise all the values which accounts for the difference of how shells were tested and what was regarded as a penetrating hit. If you can prove that their values in the De Marre calculator are wrong then bug report it.

when historical accounts show that this shell cannot penetrate the frontal armor of the tiger... and simulation it can. HURRR DURRR 57MM CAN PENETRATE 130MM OF ARMOR AT 1000M BECAUSE "REASONS". maybe they should take their head out of their butt and re-examine how their penetration simulation works. Because a 57mm just cant penetrate that much armor.

Your historical account doesn't give any useful information. It is just that a Tiger survived a bunch of shots, but we have no idea at what range, or even what type of 76mms and 57mms it was shot by. It could have been taking hits from short 57s for all we know or have been off at long range or have been taking shots at an angle.

As for historical accounts there is an account of an M8 greyhound taking out a Tiger with its 37mm to a shot to its 80mm rear. A 57mm is far more powerful than a 37mm and would have little issue getting through the approximately 100mm of frontal armor that a Tiger I has.

Here are some 57mm guns from WWII and their performances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_6-pounder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/57_mm_anti-tank_gun_M1943_(ZiS-2)

Note how it states on the soviet 57mm that the measurement required a penetration probability of 75% whereas common practice for western nations was a 50% pen rate, the lower penetration values of that gun are reflected in this even though it has a projectile that is the same weight as the british gun but is flying faster, so realistically it should be able to potentially penetrate more than the 135mm of the british tests. Other factors in penetration determination would be the type of target plate used to determine the penetration and the quality of the rounds used, some tests would use their highest quality controlled rounds while others would take a randomized bunch.

There's actually quite a lot of "RNG" when it comes to penetration of materials in real life, not all shells are made exactly equal, not every bit of armor and shell material is really its worth.

[Nica]

Escrito originalmente por Curst:

A quick comparison with a gun you don't seem to have any issues with.

Lengths:
57mm ZiS-4M - 74 calibers
57mm QF - 43 calibers

Shot mass:
57mm ZiS-4M - 3.14kg
57mm QF - 2.8 - 3.23kg

Muzzle velocity
57mm ZiS-4M - 990m/s
57mm QF - 853-801m/s

Penetration point blank:
57mm ZiS-4M - 145mm
57mm QF - 107-121mm

I don't know what else to tell you. Maybe look at your own personal bias and propaganda consumption habits.

P.S. That British gun is at 2.7 by the way, 2.6-3 BRs below your precious Tigers.

i didnt go through every single gun. i was just testing some of the russian lineup at rank 3 against the tiger to see what all the ruffle is about with the tiger br being dropped. There's so much strawman in your argument i cant believe it

[Nica]

Escrito originalmente por Dakota:

Escrito originalmente por Nica:

when historical accounts show that this shell cannot penetrate the frontal armor of the tiger... and simulation it can. HURRR DURRR 57MM CAN PENETRATE 130MM OF ARMOR AT 1000M BECAUSE "REASONS". maybe they should take their head out of their butt and re-examine how their penetration simulation works. Because a 57mm just cant penetrate that much armor.

Your historical account doesn't give any useful information. It is just that a Tiger survived a bunch of shots, but we have no idea at what range, or even what type of 76mms and 57mms it was shot by. It could have been taking hits from short 57s for all we know or have been off at long range or have been taking shots at an angle.

As for historical accounts there is an account of an M8 greyhound taking out a Tiger with its 37mm to a shot to its 80mm rear. A 57mm is far more powerful than a 37mm and would have little issue getting through the approximately 100mm of frontal armor that a Tiger I has.

Here are some 57mm guns from WWII and their performances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_6-pounder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/57_mm_anti-tank_gun_M1943_(ZiS-2)

Note how it states on the soviet 57mm that the measurement required a penetration probability of 75% whereas common practice for western nations was a 50% pen rate, the lower penetration values of that gun are reflected in this even though it has a projectile that is the same weight as the british gun but is flying faster, so realistically it should be able to potentially penetrate more than the 135mm of the british tests. Other factors in penetration determination would be the type of target plate used to determine the penetration and the quality of the rounds used, some tests would use their highest quality controlled rounds while others would take a randomized bunch.

There's actually quite a lot of "RNG" when it comes to penetration of materials in real life, not all shells are made exactly equal, not every bit of armor and shell material is really its worth.

even the wikipedia article you linked supports that these penetrations are BS

APCBC projectile BR-271
Distance, m - Meet angle 60°, mm - Meet angle 90°, mm
100 - 93 - 114
300 - 89 - 109
500 - 84 - 103
1000 - 74 - 91
1500 - 64 - 79
2000 - 56 - 69

[Kozi]

You realise the 57mm Zis-2 AT Gun was made to counter the heavy tanks like the tiger? There is no “Russian bias” it’s just straight facts. This thing could pen the tiger from a kilometre maybe even two.

[Shoshon The Elegant]

you know the t-34-57 was made to kill Tigers and other heavy tanks right?
and the tigers armor is super bad the sherman has almost the same armor at 3.7 and if we talk about real life usa lost about 8ks men for whole war and how the panther is just T-34 made worse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yn16qpTraQ tiger is same