Why does PZ4 has any armor at all?

[Commander Shepard]

Literally any variant of Panzer 4 are usually glass cannons in their own BR range.

No Panzer 4 can really resist a shot from an enemy tank in its BR like the Shermans and T-34 can.

Shermans are usually too thick in their early BR so they just shrug away most frontal shots.

T34 frontally can bounce a lot of shots and actually has a survival chance from front, its also fast

But then you have panzer 4 , its slow and has thin flat armor . Its gun is great but it cannot take any hit back reliably its usually always a pen even from the front. and when the allies roll out 57mm, 85mm T34 and 76mm shermans then pz4 just become cannon fodders.

I'm talking from personal experience , when I have a sherman sporting a 76mm gun I rush to kill every panzer 4 I see like its a candy because I know its gonna stand no chance against my gun no matter the angle (and often no matter the range)

All that armor does to pz4 is making it slower and easier target , the only role PZ4 can do in this game is hiding and sniping from the sides when the enemy is distracted or unaware, it stands no chance in face to face combat.

Is it a BR issue? I feel like most Panzer 4s are overtiered especially since some of them are in the same tier as panthers and tigers to which they don't even compare at all

[Commander Shepard]

Originally posted by Mods_o_joy:

Originally posted by Commander Shepard:

So again , why have pz4 at a BR where its armor is pointless and it cannot fulfil its role, even worse why is it in the same BR as Panther and tiger , those tanks are Gods compared to panzer 4

didnt we establish earlier that its just about as if not more mobile then an M4 due to just being a smaller and lighter vehicle, with angleable armor. ontop of that the only 76 is faces regularly in the F2 is the M10 GMC, which can be lolpenned anywhere and everywhere, and has a 3*/s manual traverse. Its also 2 BR steps below the Panther and Tiger lmao.

you missed the entire point because you were too busy typing the word "lmao" trying to look smart LOL

Its not F2 in particular, the entire Panzer 4 series are glass cannons, the fast speed of F2 only adds to that glass cannon characterstic. later variants are slower and despite additional armor they still can't take any hits so their extra armor is practically dead weight.

M10 GMC actually does a great job because it IS designed to be a glass cannon / tank destroyer/sniper and sits at right BR, it can pick off target from distance with ease because that's what its intended role is period

If you are getting lolpenned in m10 that's because you likely haven't played this game much to know that each vehicle has a intended role and trying to brawl t34 with m10 at point blank, amirite? no that's not what M10 was made for both historically and in the game , its not a medium tank

Meanwhile Panzer4 cannot properly fulfill its "medium tank" role and is majority of the time a glorified "glass cannon" sitting away on the map sniping or dying to give me free kills when anywhere near the combat area. It rarely functions like a medium tank because its armor is so pathetic compared to others in its BR.

Hence that M10 argument is quite invalid , so lets remove the M10 from the discussion altogether and you should take a vow to never type "lmao" too soon like that ever again without reading up things.

[kido]

German tanks are not classified by how much armor they have. They‘re classified by weight. That‘s why a Panther that looks to be as large as a Tiger is designated a medium, it‘s lighter than a Tiger. Panzer 4s were in the medium weight class so they classified it as a medium, whether it be gun weight or armor weight doesn‘t matter.

[Blunder Bro]

Originally posted by Commander Shepard:

Originally posted by Mods_o_joy:

didnt we establish earlier that its just about as if not more mobile then an M4 due to just being a smaller and lighter vehicle, with angleable armor. ontop of that the only 76 is faces regularly in the F2 is the M10 GMC, which can be lolpenned anywhere and everywhere, and has a 3*/s manual traverse. Its also 2 BR steps below the Panther and Tiger lmao.

you missed the entire point because you were too busy typing the word "lol" trying to look smart LOL

Its not F2 in particular the entire Panzer 4 series are glass cannons, the fast moving F2 only adds to that glass cannon characterstic. later variants are slower and still can't take any hits so their extra armor is practically dead weight.

M10 GMC actually does a great job because it IS designed to be a glass cannon / tank destroyer/sniper and sits at right BR, it can pick off target from distance with ease because that's what its intended role is period

If you are getting lolpenned in m10 that's because you likely haven't played this game much to know that each vehicle has a intended role and trying to brawl t34 with m10 at point blank, amirite? no that's not what M10 was made for both historically and in the game , its not a medium tank

Meanwhile Panzer4 cannot properly fulfill its "medium tank" role and is majority of the time a glorified "glass cannon" sitting away on the map sniping or dying to give me free kills when anywhere near the combat area. It rarely functions like a medium tank because its armor is so pathetic compared to others in its BR.

Hence that M10 argument is quite invalid , so lets remove the M10 from the discussion altogether and you should take a vow to never type "lol" too soon like that ever again without reading up things.

They aren't that much heavier or slower. Arguably improving the armour of the later shermans is also adding dead weight, is it not XD?

And yet the M10 has good armour against the T34 guns at low BR. The hull is great. Does that mean it's actually a heavy tank?

Hhaahahahahaha omfg you are so dumb! I don't think you have played the game long enough to know that the T34 isn't a brawler! hAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH and again you make me laugh! You ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about historical stuff but you don't understand why the panzer IV had the armour that it did.

Do you even know what the role of a medium tank is? You seem to think it's role is to brawl, but that's the heavy's job. As other people are also saying a medium tanks armour isn't designed to take hits from much more than light A.T. weapons. Just because there is a medium tank that is slightly less likely to explode from a medium tank shell doesn't mean the worse tank should be excluded as a medium tank or have no armour at all.

Please do go on though. I am getting a good late night kick out of this! Might make a coffee and see where your stupidity goes.

[ulzgoroth]

Medium tanks don't usually expect to survive a hit from their own weapons unless it is at long range or poorly placed. Their armor protects against automatic weapons (mostly), shrapnel, underpowered anti-armor weapons, and unlucky shots.

So the Pz IV's obsolescent chassis design may put it a bit behind its more mature contemporaries on defense, but that in no way precludes it being a medium tank...

[Blunder Bro]

Originally posted by 「メカクシ」ENE☆:

German tanks are not classified by how much armor they have. They‘re classified by weight. That‘s why a Panther that looks to be as large as a Tiger is designated a medium, it‘s lighter than a Tiger. Panzer 4s were in the medium weight class so they classified it as a medium, whether it be gun weight or armor weight doesn‘t matter.

I thought they were classified by purpose? I know other nations classified it by weight though.

[kido]

Originally posted by Demonic Cookie:

Originally posted by 「メカクシ」ENE☆:

German tanks are not classified by how much armor they have. They‘re classified by weight. That‘s why a Panther that looks to be as large as a Tiger is designated a medium, it‘s lighter than a Tiger. Panzer 4s were in the medium weight class so they classified it as a medium, whether it be gun weight or armor weight doesn‘t matter.

I thought they were classified by purpose? I know other nations classified it by weight though.

Yup, pretty sure. See how large the Panthers are? They still are light enough to be considered medium while being even slightly larger than a Tiger 1

[kido]

Or a different comparison, Panzer 2 and Panzer 3s. Nearly the same size, different armour, different weight, different classifications.

[Blunder Bro]

Originally posted by 「メカクシ」ENE☆:

Originally posted by Demonic Cookie:

I thought they were classified by purpose? I know other nations classified it by weight though.

Yup, pretty sure. See how large the Panthers are? They still are light enough to be considered medium while being even slightly larger than a Tiger 1

I thought it was purpose/role, not eight class for Germans?

May I ask for your source?

Originally posted by 「メカクシ」ENE☆:

Or a different comparison, Panzer 2 and Panzer 3s. Nearly the same size, different armour, different weight, different classifications.

Exactly, over time what defines a medium or heavy tank has changed. Early on in tank history pathetic things were considered heavy tanks. The panther and even later allied tanks changed what it meant to be a medium tank. Armour and guns got better and tough the panzer IV isn't as good, it is still a medium tank and functions as one.

The panzer IV eventually went from support to main medium tank and ended up improving everything over the panzer III design. Obviously speed may have decreased by doesn't mean it's any less a medium tank. Not all medium tanks have to have the same speed or armour. Look at modern MBTs like the Challenger and Abrams speeds.

[kido]

Originally posted by Demonic Cookie:

Originally posted by 「メカクシ」ENE☆:

Yup, pretty sure. See how large the Panthers are? They still are light enough to be considered medium while being even slightly larger than a Tiger 1

I thought it was purpose/role, not eight class for Germans?

Also, over time what defines a medium or heavy tank has changed. Early on in tank history pathetic things were considered heavy tanks. The panther and even later allied tanks changed what it meant to be a medium tank. Armour and guns got better and tough the panzer IV isn't as good, it is still a medium tank and functions as one.

May I ask for your source?

I remember hearing it from a Tank History Channel a few hours ago, so probably not reliable source lol

[Scheneighnay]

Originally posted by Mods_o_joy:

Originally posted by Commander Shepard:

So again , why have pz4 at a BR where its armor is pointless and it cannot fulfil its role, even worse why is it in the same BR as Panther and tiger , those tanks are Gods compared to panzer 4

didnt we establish earlier that its just about as if not more mobile then an M4 due to just being a smaller and lighter vehicle, with angleable armor. ontop of that the only 76 is faces regularly in the F2 is the M10 GMC, which can be lolpenned anywhere and everywhere, and has a 3*/s manual traverse. Its also 2 BR steps below the Panther and Tiger lmao.

The ♥♥♥♥ do you want to put 2 steps below the Panther? Some E-series ♥♥♥♥? Another coldwar Sherman?

[kido]

Originally posted by Scheneighnay:

Originally posted by Mods_o_joy:

didnt we establish earlier that its just about as if not more mobile then an M4 due to just being a smaller and lighter vehicle, with angleable armor. ontop of that the only 76 is faces regularly in the F2 is the M10 GMC, which can be lolpenned anywhere and everywhere, and has a 3*/s manual traverse. Its also 2 BR steps below the Panther and Tiger lmao.

The ♥♥♥♥ do you want to put 2 steps below the Panther? Some E-series ♥♥♥♥? Another coldwar Sherman?

Whut? The F2 is 3.7, the Panther is 5.7 and the Tiger before the recent move down .3 was also 5.7, so yeah 2 steps down BR.

[Scheneighnay]

Originally posted by 「メカクシ」ENE☆:

Originally posted by Demonic Cookie:

I thought it was purpose/role, not eight class for Germans?

Also, over time what defines a medium or heavy tank has changed. Early on in tank history pathetic things were considered heavy tanks. The panther and even later allied tanks changed what it meant to be a medium tank. Armour and guns got better and tough the panzer IV isn't as good, it is still a medium tank and functions as one.

May I ask for your source?

I remember hearing it from a Tank History Channel a few hours ago, so probably not reliable source lol

I haven't been able to find any cited info either yet, but a quick Wikipedia scan seems to imply that classifications were relative to whatever it was ordered as. Like how the Panther was originally significantly lighter, then gained 10 tons or so because of constant up-armoring before development ended, that somehow didn't change its classification despite it being a much heavier tank than what it was expected to be.

Despite jokes like that, Germany still had the most functional development process of the axis compared to companies sabotaging eachother to win contracts in Italy and the military branches fighting over budgets in Japan.

[Mods]

Originally posted by Commander Shepard:

Originally posted by Mods_o_joy:

didnt we establish earlier that its just about as if not more mobile then an M4 due to just being a smaller and lighter vehicle, with angleable armor. ontop of that the only 76 is faces regularly in the F2 is the M10 GMC, which can be lolpenned anywhere and everywhere, and has a 3*/s manual traverse. Its also 2 BR steps below the Panther and Tiger lmao.

you missed the entire point because you were too busy typing the word "lmao" trying to look smart LOL

Its not F2 in particular, the entire Panzer 4 series are glass cannons, the fast speed of F2 only adds to that glass cannon characterstic. later variants are slower and despite additional armor they still can't take any hits so their extra armor is practically dead weight.

M10 GMC actually does a great job because it IS designed to be a glass cannon / tank destroyer/sniper and sits at right BR, it can pick off target from distance with ease because that's what its intended role is period

If you are getting lolpenned in m10 that's because you likely haven't played this game much to know that each vehicle has a intended role and trying to brawl t34 with m10 at point blank, amirite? no that's not what M10 was made for both historically and in the game , its not a medium tank

Meanwhile Panzer4 cannot properly fulfill its "medium tank" role and is majority of the time a glorified "glass cannon" sitting away on the map sniping or dying to give me free kills when anywhere near the combat area. It rarely functions like a medium tank because its armor is so pathetic compared to others in its BR.

Hence that M10 argument is quite invalid , so lets remove the M10 from the discussion altogether and you should take a vow to never type "lmao" too soon like that ever again without reading up things.

"literally cant take a hit"

neither can any other nations medium, from your Pz IV, "Panther" or "Tiger" which you wont see in combat at all if in RB lmao, because literally nobody plays Arcade except for World of Tanks Migrators. Its a medium, You are constantly pointing out max uptier Scenarios lmao (i.e With Tigers/Panthers) of course you cant take a hit from a long 90 or a 76 because it was never designed to do so lmao, same as the sherman or T34 was not designed to take a hit from the Long 75 it mounts, lad this is some serious dunning kruger ♥♥♥♥ right here lmao.

[ulzgoroth]

Originally posted by Scheneighnay:

Despite jokes like that, Germany still had the most functional development process of the axis compared to companies sabotaging eachother to win contracts in Italy and the military branches fighting over budgets in Japan.

...That might be true, but the bar there is subterranean.

[HudsonM1A2]

I think that this thread has run it's course and, since the author has a satisfactory answer, I'll proceed to lock it.

Thread Locked.