Proof of actual bias in War Thunder.

[Noh4x]

So, you think that after many years of development and controversy (Russian shells getting extra HE filler, lower fire chance for german ammo, negative armor modifier on King Tiger etc.)...
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/254341-t-34-76s-are-discouraging-new-players-from-continuing/&page=11#entry4926959
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/256401-t-10m-aphebc-a-bit-too-powerful/#entry4927210
...bias in War Thunder is noting more than a dead meme?

Well, fear not, Gaijin has got you covered.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/6pm70p/remember_when_your_pantherking_tiger_burst_into/

tl;dr Axis vehicles got an extra line of code so they could get set on fire from hits which did not impact the fuel/engine/transmission, or even hits which passed straight through the vehicle without causing any damage. Even non-penetrating shots.
This was in the game for a long time, at least 1,5 years, maybe even since GF started, and has only been removed in the latest update.

Affected nations:
German vehicles - 70
Japanese vehicles - 19
British vehicles - 1 (likely c&p from RakJpz)
Soviet vehicles - 2 (both captured German vehicles...)

example: https://gfycat.com/ThoseBackBigmouthbass
Credits to Scout1Treia.

[Vriz]

Originally posted by Schwarzblut:

T10M is faster as the Superhellcat!
T95E1 -> real Speed 56 KmH -> Ingame Speed 20-30 KmH on Street
M41A1 -> real Speed 72 KmH -> Ingame Speed 40-44 KmH on Street
M163 -> real Speed 64 KmH -> Ingame Speed 30-33 KmH on Street

But all ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Russians are hyper mobil!

5Kg Sabot from T55A makes more Damage as the 5 Kg Sabot from T95E1

This Game sucks more and more and change to a russian Propagandagame!

That's because Gaijin doesn't know how to handle RPM (Torque) but deals with HP / Ton alone for now.

On the part of the T-55a, makes sense since it's coming out of a bigger gun with better penetration

[↯Zindy⛦]

Originally posted by Schwarzblut:

T10M is faster as the Superhellcat!
T95E1 -> real Speed 56 KmH -> Ingame Speed 20-30 KmH on Street
M41A1 -> real Speed 72 KmH -> Ingame Speed 40-44 KmH on Street
M163 -> real Speed 64 KmH -> Ingame Speed 30-33 KmH on Street

But all ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Russians are hyper mobil!

5Kg Sabot from T55A makes more Damage as the 5 Kg Sabot from T95E1

This Game sucks more and more and change to a russian Propagandagame!

if you played russia tier 5 you would know that besides speed, russian tanks like the It1 and T62 chassis are TERRIBLE and hard to turn on anything that resembles slanted terrain; wanna turn on the side of a hill? engine dies. Wanna turn in a close street battle? mashing buttons intesifies* Wanna go up a hill greater than 35+ degrees? not possible. Allies get way better manueaverability so it balances out.

[PyroPaul]

Originally posted by Vriz:

On the part of the T-55a, makes sense since it's coming out of a bigger gun with better penetration

the size of the gun is entirely meaningless to APFSDS darts... after all, you are shooting rounds smaller then the boresize of the cannon it is fired from.

the major components that come into play is Mass and Velocity.

The T-55a's projectile velocity is lower then the T95e1's projectile velocity. Yet the T-55a seemingly violates the laws of physics and some how the lower velocity projectile is capable of penetrating more armor then the higher velocity projectile.

[Vriz]

Originally posted by PyroPaul:

Originally posted by Vriz:

On the part of the T-55a, makes sense since it's coming out of a bigger gun with better penetration

the size of the gun is entirely meaningless to APFSDS darts... after all, you are shooting rounds smaller then the boresize of the cannon it is fired from.

the major components that come into play is Mass and Velocity.

The T-55a's projectile velocity is lower then the T95e1's projectile velocity. Yet the T-55a seemingly violates the laws of physics and some how the lower velocity projectile is capable of penetrating more armor then the higher velocity projectile.

I wouldn't dare say it's meaningless when it comes to the gun. Otherwise, you could theoretically fire all 105mm shell types out of the Type 60 SPRG's 106mm and expect the same performance for example.

Or you can fire the 120mm APFSDS round from the Chieftain out of a 105mm as an extreme example.


Still, the rounds themselves are in question here and that includes other essential factors to consider here besides Mass and Velocity such as the materials used for the round itself and the gun firing it itself

The T-62's default APFSDS round for example, despite being a bigger and faster shell than the T95e1's, actually pens less than it.

-------------------
APDS is also in the same boat:

The Conqueror's APDS, although faster than the Chieftain's by 100 m/s more while being 0.9kg less shell weight, pens less than the Chieftain's by a significant margin (40mm pen less)

Conversely

The SU-122-54's APDS, despite it being bigger than the 105mm APDS by 1.6kg and slower than it by 78m/s, actually pens less than the 105mm APDS by a couple mm (4mm difference)

[relliK]

Originally posted by Vriz:

Lol this isn't true on any level. What you're saying is basically the client that everyone is playing on, is functionally different than what the server is reading when it's more than likely the client is reading the server wrong i.e sparking:

no... i say that the client got a (lets say basic) configuration of the planes, tanks, environment variables etc which can be overridden by the server... the client is sending and recieving data correctly and so do the servers.

Originally posted by Vriz:

You see "hits" on planes and you may even get points out of it but the server is registering a couple hits instead of the entire time you've been unloading on a plane because the server is reading you're BARELY able to hit him.

sparks are being calculated client sided... depending on your latency / ping they are basically useless because while you see 'hits' on the enemy plane on your client (like 0ms latency) you may actually miss the plane due to it being on a completely different location on the server (maybe 250ms ?!) - and there is only so much lag compensation mechanics can do about this.

the only reliable source for registered hits are the onscreen messages (hits, rp, lions) being send by the server.

Originally posted by Vriz:

This is especially true for my counterpoint on the server patch notes from your statement. The server dictates what vehicles are capable of doing, for instance, you can't adjust the reload rate on your client to your own benefit as that's an illegal modification. What you can do is send data to the server on increasing the reload rate on your vehicle and the server will validate it and everyone will see / experience that data from you i.e

that's pretty much exactly what i said... the server dictates the rules... it can apply changes to the mechanics and / or it can ignore invalid data being send by the clients. test flights / drives and user missions however dont take place no the game server but only on the client... they are basically offline modes.

Everyone in the match will feel the power behind your Aced crew reload on your tank for example.

Originally posted by Vriz:

Which is why in a test flight for example, when you fly out something like, a Yak-30 with an aced crew into arcade: You reload the cannons at your crew's level which is 13s.

[...]

If you try to test flight it without that aced crew, it'll default into a stock crew and the reload jumps to nearly 37s.

well this is just the crew skill... and if the reload time isn't getting adjusted by the server configuration (or rather the reload time settings are the same on the client and the server) they will ofc be the same (related to the crew level)

but what Gaijin can do... is to change the reload time to 500 seconds in the server settings - this would mean that while you see a 13s reload time (or 37s depending on the crew level) in a test flight (offline) you'd still see 500 seconds in a live battle.

Originally posted by Vriz:

The most absolute example of this is when a server update includes a new type of ammo for a tank.

http://warthunder.com/en/game/changelog/current/658/

Everyone updates their client from what the server is dictating.

well... on those server updates there usually is no client update - and that's the whole point. the server can change things on the client side without the client software being updated itself. and since test flights / drives and user missions are not taking place on the servers but on the client only (basically a sandbox offline mode) the results may or may not be the same (depending on how the server settings are being received / implemented)

yes, i do know that this game does not have a real offline mode but you have to be online at all times to be able to do anything but still...

one more detail on this... lets take the dev server. when it goes down once the testing time is over and no new live battles can be started people can still do test drives and custom missions. (dont know about custom battles though but since they've been switched from being player hosted to server hosted as well a while ago i guess they wont be available anymore either)

Originally posted by Vriz:

In simpler terms, what I'm saying is that it's the equivalent of playing a singleplayer game like Fallout 4, but haven't downloaded the patches / updates to the game which can include bug fixes (lol), weapon rebalancing etc etc

Since War Thunder is an ONLINE ONLY GAME, everyone is playing the same version, which means test drive/flights will be the same as it'd be in a live match.

and this is exactly the common misconception i'm talking about... Gaijin can at any time change different things in the game on-the-fly without the necessity of a client update. those changes may or may not affect test drives / flights and user missions - we just dont know (for sure)

[Vriz]

Originally posted by relliK:

~snip`

Sorry but no, you CANNOT play on the live client when there's a server update (or any update as far as I can remember) as the client would actively force you out to reupdate the game. You'd be unable to join any matches until you leave (but you are allowed to finish a match currently in progress) and while I didn't personally test-drive / flight while the previous updates was in progress, it's very safe to assume you can't play on it either since it's an online only game.

So that 500s reload during a live game can only happen after the game reupdates and everyone follows the rules set on that 500s reload.

You talk like it's the same but really, you're implicating it's happening at the same time when people are in a game when an update is in progress and the change is happening mid game.

It doesn't, it never did and there's not a single incident in the years since 2013 that I can legitimately and honestly remember it ever having done that for a server update.

Not when the repair times were decreased massively from 20min repair times to 3 or so minutes

Not when the reload rates were adjust for the T-54

Not when HEAT-FS was added to the T-54

Anything you can test ingame right now is legitimate and will be replicated in a live match.

[R.A.T. Army *MST3K*]

I killed an IS6 yesterday. Russian bias proved false.

[ASUKA]

Originally posted by (東方) Zindai:

Originally posted by Foxtrot39:

70 german tank and 19 ♥♥♥ tank confirmed to be affected by hit dealing no damage to flamable part to cause fire

Less than 5 for the entire allied faction

Thas about 20 axis tank put in disadvantage for 1 allied tank having the same issue

Its hard to not take out the bias detector and not see it go full banana or starting putting tin foil hats on

and tell me how reliable those sources are again?

Dude just look at the source maybe? It literally shows an in-game example, it quotes the dev blog for finally taking this bs out of the game and it shows the actual code.

[Wuotani Ruoperath]

Originally posted by Vriz:

Originally posted by Schwarzblut:

On the part of the T-55a, makes sense since it's coming out of a bigger gun with better penetration

Bigger Gun or not...5Kg = 5Kg...the Rest of Shell is not relevand

[Something completely different]

Originally posted by Schwarzblut:

T10M is faster as the Superhellcat!
T95E1 -> real Speed 56 KmH -> Ingame Speed 20-30 KmH on Street
M41A1 -> real Speed 72 KmH -> Ingame Speed 40-44 KmH on Street
M163 -> real Speed 64 KmH -> Ingame Speed 30-33 KmH on Street

But all ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Russians are hyper mobil!

Nice joke there.

The first time I played a hyperfast T-26 in RB the game was about over by the time I reached the first capping zone. Not to mention the incredible speed of the T-35.

[RandyBobandy]

i remember killing panther with .50 - had mine gun disabled so i rammed it and keep shooting with .50 - somehow setting it on fire and poor guy did not have fire ex. researched :(

[↯Zindy⛦]

Originally posted by PinkieSwear:

Originally posted by (東方) Zindai:

and tell me how reliable those sources are again?

Dude just look at the source maybe? It literally shows an in-game example, it quotes the dev blog for finally taking this bs out of the game and it shows the actual code.

I could do the exact same thing, this is just a cry from wehraboos to make their vehicles fireproof, notice how most people on the reddit do admit to not even playing soviet vehicles and play germans and japan exclusivley

edit: according to reddit it is fixed anyway

[Vriz]

Originally posted by Schwarzblut:

Originally posted by Vriz:

Bigger Gun or not...5Kg = 5Kg...the Rest of Shell is not relevand

Originally posted by Vriz:

Originally posted by PyroPaul:

the size of the gun is entirely meaningless to APFSDS darts... after all, you are shooting rounds smaller then the boresize of the cannon it is fired from.

the major components that come into play is Mass and Velocity.

The T-55a's projectile velocity is lower then the T95e1's projectile velocity. Yet the T-55a seemingly violates the laws of physics and some how the lower velocity projectile is capable of penetrating more armor then the higher velocity projectile.

I wouldn't dare say it's meaningless when it comes to the gun. Otherwise, you could theoretically fire all 105mm shell types out of the Type 60 SPRG's 106mm and expect the same performance for example.

Or you can fire the 120mm APFSDS round from the Chieftain out of a 105mm as an extreme example.


Still, the rounds themselves are in question here and that includes other essential factors to consider here besides Mass and Velocity such as the materials used for the round itself and the gun firing it itself

The T-62's default APFSDS round for example, despite being a bigger and faster shell than the T95e1's, actually pens less than it.

-------------------
APDS is also in the same boat:

The Conqueror's APDS, although faster than the Chieftain's by 100 m/s more while being 0.9kg less shell weight, pens less than the Chieftain's by a significant margin (40mm pen less)

Conversely

The SU-122-54's APDS, despite it being bigger than the 105mm APDS by 1.6kg and slower than it by 78m/s, actually pens less than the 105mm APDS by a couple mm (4mm difference)

[Blitzkrieg Wulf]

Originally posted by Noh4x:

tl;dr Axis vehicles got an extra line of code so they could get set on fire from hits which did not impact the fuel/engine/transmission, or even hits which passed straight through the vehicle without causing any damage. Even non-penetrating shots.
This was in the game for a long time, at least 1,5 years, maybe even since GF started, and has only been removed in the latest update.

So... Does this come with a published statistic on how often/many times this extra line of code was enacted and resulted in a death?

Or an explanation on how a projectile punched through one side of the tank, and then punched through the other side of the tank, with zero spall/fragmentation?

And that the hit cam doesn't show everything?

Really, the big question that I would like to ask, the million dollar question, is why I don't see a link to a two year old bug report, if this was such a serious problem? I would think that if it was a daily, every-match-I-play occurrence, that it would surely have been reported prior?

And relliK isn't wrong. I've noticed at least a few times when performance in private test drives did not match up with server-sided battles.

@Vriz - relliK is ex TM. I think you can give him more credibility.

[Vriz]

Originally posted by Blitzkrieg Wulf:

And relliK isn't wrong. I've noticed at least a few times when performance in private test drives did not match up with server-sided battles.

@Vriz - relliK is ex TM. I think you can give him more credibility.

That sounds more than likely a placebo effect rather than proof.

Another example:
Before the M22 transmission was fixed, that studder / wiggle in changing gears was in place in both test drives and live matches for AB and slightly in RB.

Not to mention that the usual map for everyone that hasn't downloaded custom user missions is Kursk compared in live matches when there's varying environmental effects in play when it comes to how a ground vehicle moves in snow, mud, grass, pavement etc etc on top of whether or not your crew is in play when test driving which can affect the performance of a tank like driving, reload and accuracy on top of whether it's a "reference" model or a "current" model

Since there's no proof to back up the assumptions made by relliK, I take what relliK's is saying with a grain of salt.

If he's, beyond any reasonable doubt, right in the end, then that's all there is to the discussion about it.