Guns Do More DMG Than Crossbows?

[BACCALA]

I have an orange crossbow and a blue handgun for my dwarf. It states on the stats that the orange crossbow has full damage and the blue handgun has slightly less than full. But my handgun one shots assassins and packmasters even without a headshot and my crossbow takes two. I don't know if this is one of those orange bugs where the exotic does less damage than lower tier weapons or the crossbow is just not as strong as the gun. But it feels like it.

Does anyone else have experience with these weapons?

[JojoTheSlayer]

Yes, guns are better. Thats why we dont go to war with crossbows anymore.
But seriously. Game wise the the crossbow is projectile based weapon while the guns are instant hitscan weapons. There really isnt any good reason to use a crossbow over a "handgun", aka a rifle, on the classes that have access to them.

As for damage, you need to shoot twice at times on Nightmare if you have a green handgun.
Which I have because, you know. RNG!

Fortunally I have the "double bullet" perk on that one so, yay me... /sarcasm

[AlCool]

The crossbow does a noticable amount less damage than the rifles (handguns) always. The crossbow does however reload much faster. If you can headshot reliably, the crossbow is better for many situations. For saving teammates from specials though, the rifles (handguns...) are better.

[BACCALA]

Originally posted by JojoTheSlayer:

Yes, guns are better. Thats why we dont go to war with crossbows anymore.
But seriously. Game wise the the crossbow is projectile based weapon while the guns are instant hitscan weapons. There really isnt any good reason to use a crossbow over a "handgun", aka a rifle, on the classes that have access to them.

As for damage, you need to shoot twice at times on Nightmare if you have a green handgun.
Which I have because, you know. RNG!

Fortunally I have the "double bullet" perk on that one so, yay me... /sarcasm

I prefer the handgun because of the reliability, if my crosshairs are on the target and I shoot, it will hit. And the main reason to use a crossbow over a handgun is getting droppen an orange, it also reloads faster and is useful for dropping ogres.

[BACCALA]

Originally posted by AlCool:

The crossbow does a noticable amount less damage than the rifles (handguns) always. The crossbow does however reload much faster. If you can headshot reliably, the crossbow is better for many situations. For saving teammates from specials though, the rifles (handguns...) are better.

Yeah the crossbow is very useful, especialy with master crafted. Pop a strength pot and you can kill an ogre before you run out of ammo. Also good for multiple stormvermin as you arent left vulnerable for 5 seconds while you reload. I don't have a problem with it doing less damage than the handgun I just want it to be reflected in the stats. As it stands all stats for all weapons are pretty wonky and don't reflect what actually happens in game.

[Chimbo]

Extoic crossbow 3 body shots for stormvermin, Exotic rifle 2 body shots for stormvermin.
Both have a full bar of damage. Really wish the stats were more accurate.

[BACCALA]

Originally posted by Hazardous:

Extoic crossbow 3 body shots for stormvermin, Exotic rifle 2 body shots for stormvermin.
Both have a full bar of damage. Really wish the stats were more accurate.

I thought this was the case. I think all the stats need an overhaul or the weapons need to be changed to reflect the stats because as it stands the stats are more or less very, very loose guidelines.

[Cottoncloud]

To devs if they'd ever read it. I know exact numbers will make pople go for most efficient choices, and most likely it's something you want to avoid, but... putting graphic weapon stats that are in fact misleading is a bit too much imho. If we cant trust whatever the bars show, then you can delete weapons stats from the game.

[BACCALA]

Originally posted by Gork:

To devs if they'd ever read it. I know exact numbers will make pople go for most efficient choices, and most likely it's something you want to avoid, but... putting graphic weapon stats that are in fact misleading is a bit too much imho. If we cant trust whatever the bars show, then you can delete weapons stats from the game.

I don't think it's on purpose I think they just need to find a better way to represent stats. They either need to use hard numbers (each stat bar being 100 and each stat having x/100) to make the graphs or change the weapons to relect what's on the graphs. It knida feels like they just made up the stats based on what the weapons feel like, rather than what they actually are.

[Butan]

I agree with most of the posters above, but for some reasons I tend to incline toward : guns too OP, compared to Xbow.

I think guns should be a bit slower in their reload rate, while remaining a reliable sniping machine, it would make them more a "one shot, switch" weapon, than a "if I ever miss this headshot, I can follow it up real easy" weapon.

Atm Xbow is more a runner-pusher and a somewhat cool tool against hordes (especially with 50% faster reload), but it has the same total ammunition than rifle, making them non-spammable. They could have a bit more bolts than rifles has bullets too.
The only thing that saves Xbow, is that when you are very accurate, it does the same job than a rifle.

[Robin]

The damage stats are simplifications since the different weapons deal different amounts of damage depending on the target's armour type, but this is most likely a typo.

The damage balancing is quite a lot more complex under the hood than what we could reasonably show in the screen real estate that is dedicated to comparing weapons. This is something we have discussed internally, but we are not really convinced just dumping everything into that screen making things nigh unreadable for those just checking what weapon does the most damage is the right solution.

For instance, different weapons have different damage drop per consecutive target hit in the same swing. If we would list exact damage in numbers it would be multidimensional matrix that you'd probably need a degree in game design to read ;)

Feedback noted though.

[BACCALA]

Originally posted by Robin:

The damage stats are simplifications since the different weapons deal different amounts of damage depending on the target's armour type, but this is most likely a typo.

The damage balancing is quite a lot more complex under the hood than what we could reasonably show in the screen real estate that is dedicated to comparing weapons. This is something we have discussed internally, but we are not really convinced just dumping everything into that screen making things nigh unreadable for those just checking what weapon does the most damage is the right solution.

For instance, different weapons have different damage drop per consecutive target hit in the same swing. If we would list exact damage in numbers it would be multidimensional matrix that you'd probably need a degree in game design to read ;)

Feedback noted though.

That makes some sense. Though I think possibly adding an extra "armor piercing value bar" could be added into the stats screen to clear up 90% of these perceived stat incongruencies. Adding a bar to show how much of max damage a weapon retains when striking through armour would be simple and probably clear up a lot of confusion. Nothing else really needs to be represented, like damage loss through enemies we don't really need to know as our main focus is the big guy we're aiming at.

[managerimankeli]

Originally posted by Robin:

This is something we have discussed internally, but we are not really convinced just dumping everything into that screen making things nigh unreadable for those just checking what weapon does the most damage is the right solution.

Of course it is. Advanced players want reliable information to make intelligent decisions. Even if not everyone can figure out your (probably completely pointlessly complex) formulas and armor types and whatever, some in the community will go through the data and be able to translate.

Not providing ANY NUMBERS at all is like saying lol whatever it's not a serious game so no info needed. For noobs you can keep the current useless graphs if that makes you feel better, except you shouldn't because, well, just look at this thread; Your misleading graphs are literally worse than no info at all, since at least no info means players don't make incorrect assumptions based on the bars. I mean what do you expect will happen when one gun has a bigger bar than the other and no other explanation? Obviously the player will think it's more damage, end of story.

For instance, different weapons have different damage drop per consecutive target hit in the same swing.

Which is another reason a simple stupid bar is worse than no info at all. Sorry but this policy of yours is horrible.

[Go-Go Dancer]

Originally posted by Robin:

For instance, different weapons have different damage drop per consecutive target hit in the same swing. If we would list exact damage in numbers it would be multidimensional matrix that you'd probably need a degree in game design to read.

Would be great to see them anyhow. It's kinda frustrating to dig out numbers by taking one swing at enemy and suiciding afterwards to see damage statistics.

[gulc]

Originally posted by Go-Go Dancer:

Would be great to see them anyhow. It's kinda frustrating to dig out numbers by taking one swing at enemy and suiciding afterwards to see damage statistics.

If you are doing that to make some sort of chart then you are my hero.

[Ralathar44]

Originally posted by Robin:

The damage stats are simplifications since the different weapons deal different amounts of damage depending on the target's armour type, but this is most likely a typo.

The damage balancing is quite a lot more complex under the hood than what we could reasonably show in the screen real estate that is dedicated to comparing weapons. This is something we have discussed internally, but we are not really convinced just dumping everything into that screen making things nigh unreadable for those just checking what weapon does the most damage is the right solution.

For instance, different weapons have different damage drop per consecutive target hit in the same swing. If we would list exact damage in numbers it would be multidimensional matrix that you'd probably need a degree in game design to read ;)

Feedback noted though.

Robin I 100% agree with you for in game resources. However the information should still be provided to the playerbase I believe via a wiki or game info page or something. Outside of game resource. The main reason is....they are going to get it anyways lol. They will die 98585 times or deconstruct your files to find that data and put it together. It'll take time, but some crazy mofos will do it.

So you might as well compile a rough simplification onto a sheet and hand it to the playerbase lol. It'll be easier than trial and error. A good example of a simplification would be weapon min/max damage vs X target type and Y dropoff per target hit. You could do this for each swing and the charge attacks. Trust me as a former MMORPG gamer I can tell you that alot of us are rather resilient when it comes to numbered stats. My eyes won't gloss over, I'll salivate lol.

Because right now it isn't really apparent in alot of things. For example my Bright Wizard's flame sword appears to go through entire hordes like butter and CC them all excellently. But the 2h dwarf axe seems to just stop after a certain number of rats. However the flame sword may take multiple swipes to kill the entire horde while the 2h axe will legit kill a certain number of rats with every swing.

I only learned this through experience at both. Ironically flame sword is much better at large groups because of this, though the axe is much better at stormvermin.