Lore question: origin of the Skaven

[Darcaem]

Is there an "oficial" anwser about the origin of the Skaven?

In the Skaven's codex from 6th and 7th edition, it tells the tale of "The Doom of Kavzar". But this tale, unless I misread something, doesn't really explain the origin of them.

In "The Loathsome Ratmen, and all their vile kin", supposedly written by Wilhelm Leiber, scholar and survivor of an Skaven attack, the author discusses three possible origins based on other supposed scholars' arguments:

1.- Wilfried Schtrutt argues tha the Skaven are originally rats "mutated by the hand of some malign and unknown power". And he wonders if "the Ruinous Powers may have played some part" in this mutation.

2.- Despite agreing with Schtrutt's theory, the Tilean classicist, Verdallo, believes that "all things in the universe" were created by the interaction of "vast and impersonal cosmic archetypes which exist outside Space and Time". So, "Dwarfs are created by the union of man and stone", "Elves by the union of man and plan", and so, Skaven are created by the union of rat and man. But the author, Wilhelm, quickly discarts this theory, as it does not fulfil any empirical analysis.

3.- In Johannes Krueger's "Bestiarium" it is argued that Skaven are man that where cursed by their actions. He tells an ancient Estalien legend where a group of shipwreck survivors turn into cannibalism, and so "the sea-God Manann transformed into rats". Kruegers believe that there is truth beneath the myth, and that there actually were some mariners that resorted to cannibalism and were cursed by Manann, in an island that he calls Rodentenland, to the east of the -at that time- newly discovered Lustria. But instead of "being changed into rats per se, the curse caused them to slowly degenerate into man-rat hybrids, and it was these hybrids who served as the progenitors of the modern Skaven race". Johannes even calls for an unnited expedition to find that island and exterminate the natives.
Wilhelm also refutes this theory, as "despite much exploration [...] no trace of such island has even been found". He concludes that "Rodentenland is as much a myth as tales of lost tribes of Hafling cannibals in the New World, or vast kingdoms ruled by Ogres east of the World's Edge Mountains".

Finally Wilhelm applies the "scholarly dictum of the Otkar's Razor" (oh, I did laugh when reading about the Warhammer version of Occam) and concludes that the first explanation must be true. According to him, Skaven are "ordinary rats transformed into horrors", but he "can only guess what ancient sorcery -or ancient hand- was responsible" of it. Nor can he "hazard a motive for perpetrating such a mostrous crime.

So, were the Chaos Gods responsible for the creation of the ratmen? Why? (besides, you know, chaos) And, who is the Horned Rat? Does it exist?

Perhaps all of this questions do have an official answer, I have not read the End of Times, and just a very tiny fragment of all the Warhammer's lore books.

PS: I'm asking this also in the TW: Warhammer's forum: http://steamcommunity.com/app/364360/discussions/0/152393186499330531/

[peremptor]

From the game itself Bardin states that they have been fighting the Skaven for tens of thousands of years and that previous to that the elves as well suggesting Skaven have been around longer than humans and dwarves in the warhammer world.

[Mothvibe]

Interesting stuff!

I don't really know a lot about the Warhammer universe outside of the 40K stuff, so I think it's safe to say in one way that I shouldn't even be commenting. But being involved is a great way to learn, so here goes nothing.

****************************************************************************

It says ingame that (paraphrasing here) "people can believe that the Skaven are the results of Chaos, but can't believe that the Skaven are intelligent enough to be an organised threat".

So, I guess the current mainstream belief (in End Times) is that they are the result of Chaos magic, either by accident or design.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on your post:

1. This would make sense if the Skaven (as a race, and possibly unknowingly) have a particular 'task', such as 'bringing about the end of human civilization'. Like the legendary 'Great Flood' in our real-life world - but with Ratmen instead of water.

Also, I don't know how much this matters, but my 'research' has shown that Warpstone is common in Skaven areas, and is regularly consumed by them (the Grey Seers use it like a drug). Warpstone is literally made from Dark Magic.

Now, I haven't been able to find anything about this, but it could be the case that, over time, rats evolved into Skaven because of this.Aagain, either by accident or design.

To put it simply, perhaps: Rats + Magic Rocks = Skaven, eventually.

2. Empirical Analysis is a tool, a way to measure things. It is not infallible, and is not the best tool for certain tasks. This is one of those tasks.

If the true origin of the Skaven is cosmic, then it is cosmic - regardless of what Empirical Analysis has to say on the matter. This does not invalidate Empirical Analysis as a tool.

But I don't think it was Rat and Man, I think it was another humanoid race. The Skaven have more incommon with Dwarf and Elf races than with Humans. I could also easily be convinced that the different Skaven are the results of different humanoids being mashed together with rats. So, for instance, perhaps Rat Ogres are Rat and Orc. Or, you know - Rat and Ogre.

Remember, I am just thinking out loud, I am not saying that I believe this.

3. That sounds like crazytalk, and this is in a conversation about militarily aggressive anthros.

All flippance aside, the actual real-life origin of 'manimals' is usually based on the idea of cultural norms (i.e. "don't cry on your birthday or you'll turn into a spider" - and yes that was a real thing where I lived).

Shapeshifting powers are often attributed to those that break taboo rules. The best example of this is probably the Native American mythological shapeshifter known as the Skinwalker: You can get the power to change your physical form into any animal you want - but only if you break your tribe/family's biggest tabbo: Usually killing a tribe/family member, often an infant.

Contrast and compare to the idea of an entire island turning into cannibals, then being forcibly shapeshifted, forever.

It brings to mind the idea that every single story ever told is actually a morality tale. I love that idea. The idea that we have a reason to tell stories to each other.

MY CONLCUSION:

Skaven were created by magic, either by accident or (possibly cosmic) design, to achieve the task of clearing the physical world in order for it to be reborn.

(I have assumed that Warhammer 40K takes place in the same Warhammer universe, just 40,000 years later.)

*********************************************************************************************************

According to everything I've read, the Horned Rat is technically a Chaos God, as he replaced one of the other Chaos Gods druing the Age of Sigmar, but he doesn't care about being a Chaos God.

He is apparently an actual dude, who hangs out somewhere in 'The Warp'.

Okay, I used all my energy researching the first 3 entries up there. I can live with that. Also, I assume that someone has actually come along and answered all these correctly by the time I've typed it all up. Oh well, I can see how close I got!

[Free Luigi M.]

peremptor původně napsal:

From the game itself Bardin states that they have been fighting the Skaven for tens of thousands of years and that previous to that the elves as well suggesting Skaven have been around longer than humans and dwarves in the warhammer world.

Not really. In the Warhammer universe Skavens are a human mutation. Originally it was a village of humans who suffered a Chaos curse/catastrophe, swallowed by the earth, mutated by Chaotic powers and warpstone, and its inhabitants became what are now the Skavens.

Strontium Dingo původně napsal:

The Horned Rat is a demon residing in the demonic realm (just like the four major "gods", they are demons who acquired great power). He later officially enters in the Chaos pantheon during Age of Sigmar.

And no, W40K is not set in the same universe as Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

[♛]

There was once a well-developed human city called Kavzar. Being a prosperous settlement, the humans decided to build a massive tower in honor of the gods, with the dwarf citizens also helping them.

Many years passed and the tower stretched to the skies but still was not complete. One day, a hooded stranger came to the city and told the elders that he needed only one night and he can complete the tower. The elders agreed.

That night, while the city slept, mysterious fog rolled in, animals sounded terrified, a storm raged, and a bell began tolling once.. twice... until it tolled thirteen times.

At the thirteenth toll, it stopped. The citizens went outside and saw that their tower glimmered and was completed, but the stranger was never found.

-----------------

Days and weeks passed by and weird incidents started happening - people disappeared, food mysteriously vanished, some humans had become sick or became insane. The dwarfs, shut themselves in their hold underground while the humans fended for themselves.

Finally, at the end of their wits, the humans banged on the doors of the dwarf hold - no one answered. They went in and found bones picked clean.

And then all around them glowed red hungry eyes - Skaven.

-----------

This was the "Doom of Kavzar" and is one of the most well-known origins of the Skaven race.

The city is now known as "Skavenblight" - the city proper itself stretches underneath the ground and the tower is visibly seen (in ruins). The surrounding lands became the Blighted Marsh which is inhospitable and impassable for other races. The Skaven have also built more tunnels underground that spanned the entire world.

[Darcaem]

el2mador původně napsal:

This was the "Doom of Kavzar" and is one of the most well-known origins of the Skaven race.

Yeah, but this do not explain the origin of Skaven, it is only the fist "registered" time that they appeared in the surface.

Strontium Dingo původně napsal:

But I don't think it was Rat and Man, I think it was another humanoid race. The Skaven have more incommon with Dwarf and Elf races than with Humans. I could also easily be convinced that the different Skaven are the results of different humanoids being mashed together with rats. So, for instance, perhaps Rat Ogres are Rat and Orc. Or, you know - Rat and Ogre.

Remember that this theory was defended by Verdallo, a Tilean scholar (we may assume it repressents an italian humanistic scholar). So it's a homocentric theory, humans are the center or the universe, so any other species must derive from humans. We know now it's wrong, but at that time, he do believe that.

[Mothvibe]

Joe Chip původně napsal:

And no, W40K is not set in the same universe as Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

Well, that just raises even more questions! O.o

Ones which I will eventually form and make a new thread about.

I guess I shouldn't call Eldar 'Space Elves' any more, then. :\

Darcaem původně napsal:

So it's a homocentric theory, humans are the center or the universe, so any other species must derive from humans. We know now it's wrong, but at that time, he do believe that.

Ah, I see. So this is the correct viewpoint/angle from which look at the comments of Verdallo.

Noted, and thanks. :)

[♛]

Darcaem původně napsal:

el2mador původně napsal:

This was the "Doom of Kavzar" and is one of the most well-known origins of the Skaven race.

Yeah, but this do not explain the origin of Skaven, it is only the fist "registered" time that they appeared in the surface.

Strontium Dingo původně napsal:

But I don't think it was Rat and Man, I think it was another humanoid race. The Skaven have more incommon with Dwarf and Elf races than with Humans. I could also easily be convinced that the different Skaven are the results of different humanoids being mashed together with rats. So, for instance, perhaps Rat Ogres are Rat and Orc. Or, you know - Rat and Ogre.

Remember that this theory was defended by Verdallo, a Tilean scholar (we may assume it repressents an italian humanistic scholar). So it's a homocentric theory, humans are the center or the universe, so any other species must derive from humans. We know now it's wrong, but at that time, he do believe that.

We don't really know what their origins are but the Doom of Kavzar story tends to be the most widely used in fluff/lore.

[Haggis]

I was always of the impression that Skaven were simply 'Beastmen' who sprung up around industrial areas. The rats were naturally attracted to all the filth, and then the chaotic energies began mutating them. As rats were the most common creature they all (or at least most of them) became rat-like, as opposed to the ram-bull-horse-country animals that the Beastmen generally become. If there were non-rat chaos mutations they would likely have been killed by the rats for being different, just like many of the Beastmen hate those beasts that are not of the same type as them.

Couple that with generations of being 'isolated' living in sewers and such, and the rats developed their own culture, replete with racism for all other non-rats (including general beastmen which is why they consider themselves distinct). Whilst Beastmen would encounter human warlords frequently (either those who came in the name of chaos, or those who sought out chaos for power); they came to follow the 'original' chaos gods due to these mighty men forcing them to serve under their banner. The Skaven on the other hand were cut off from open human society and were not even believed to exist by most - and as such ended up creating their own god in their own image (because down in the sewers there are not too many things other than rats, so what else would they base their deity on?). Assuming the warp works as it does in 40k this would then create an actual rat god - the Horned Rat.

Essentially they meme'd themselves into their distinct race with their own god, as opposed to simply being another branch of the beastmen.

... I have very little actual lore supporting my beliefs here, I just always figured that was what had happened.

[Darcaem]

What is defended many times in the lore by different people is that Skavens are not mutated beastmen :)

[clown slip me pls ban he]

We know two things, that the Skaven worship something related to chaos, (The Horned Rat) if not merely related, it is a ruinous power of its own.

It is likely they came into existance around the same time The Old Ones accidentally drew the Ruinous powers into the game.

[FlameWar]

From many small scraps in the lroe and codices along the years it seems the ratmen were also created by the old ones, maybe/possibly murking up one of their projects after they drew the ruinous powers into the world as well. That aside, beastmen offspring is unlikely due to a completely different society and race structure imo.

On the Topic of which world it belongs to, it kidna is half in the W40K universe. GW build up the different dimension thing up from very early, and recently it has been completely confirmed in End times:

Basically the WFB (Warhammer Fanatasy battles) and W40K are in different Dimensions, though both are connected by chaos and all known races more or less originate in the old ones, or were changed/advanced by them (kinda unclear on the tyranids, though there ar esome decent theories floating aorudn on that).
The old ones seem to be the same species/civilisation in both dimensions, and consideirng they came to the WFB wolrd via 'Chaos Portals' on the Poles of the world, it is reasonable to believe they came there from the W40K dimension via the (then) unblemished immaterium.
That theory is strengthened by the fact that near the end of the end times the Suviving Armies/Hordes of the WFB world go through said portals and enter the W40K dimension, albeit on a planet that is not directly in contact with any active race there. So since they are conected to the 'same' Immatereum/Warpdimension, you can travel between them via said dimension, and the originas and goods are both fairly identical in both it is reasonable to say they are in fact i nthe same world/verse, although not in contact.

[peremptor]

Well the in game lore suggests the Skavens are at least as old as the Dwarves if not older than the Elves themselves. Not sure how humans fit into that.

[KEV1N]

The Skaven are a myth. A story told to frighten young children.

[Kapope]

Warhammer lore is also known as "The Everchanging Fluff" by some circles, so, keep that in mind. The origin of Skaven might get released in a codex in a years time, then get changed a year later because the new writer didnt like the old origin story. Such is the way of GW and the Black Library.

[FlameWar]

Kapope původně napsal:

Warhammer lore is also known as "The Everchanging Fluff" by some circles, so, keep that in mind. The origin of Skaven might get released in a codex in a years time, then get changed a year later because the new writer didnt like the old origin story. Such is the way of GW and the Black Library.

Now you're going overboard. They don't change it that often, it woudl require work to ptu out a codex that often.