backpack lockout

[stuguy909]

So I killed a trader caravan and took the garru's pack. It was jam packed with goodies, and it somehow fit inside of my small backpack...word to coder, if you're transferring backpack array is larger than the receiving backpack array and the large array contains contents, it shouldn't fit. Anywho, Garru are difficult to recruit without mods, and I don't have one. This leaves me with quite the pickle of figuring out how to open the stolen goods and sell. The backpack's value doesn't calculate the contents along with the pack...so I think I will sit on it until I get a Garru, but I just wanted to bring this up. I think if the player can fit the loaded backpack in his misc inventory box, he should be able to open the contents and offload them to another container, IE his backpack, merchant, ground, another character, or storage bin. Maybe not load it, so the array would be converted to a stack and pop items out while in misc inventory, then converted to array if on an animal.

[Aurelia]

Your first mention is something that has been around for years, and has been discussed to death. No real word on if the devs just want it this way, or they've been putting it off trying to get more important things done.

Your second is something that I agree with, and that is there should be a way to open bags without having to have them equipped.
For now, you'll have to equip it onto a garru that you've knocked out, and then loot the garru.

[Erei]

I think the backpack aren't done yet. The reason I can imagine for not being to open the backpack in the inventory is probably because we are not supposed to put item on them while they are not on your back. When they are in the inventory they are kinda folded and stuff. I can't imagine a folded bag not on my my pack being full of items.
Balance wise, doing so allow you to carry way much than you would, and basically multiply your people's inventory.

Not to mention, it allow you to simply ignore the penalty for most backpack. You can even have a bull backpack, fill it, and then drop it in someone inventory. Kinda like what you did. Basically having a guy carrying a bull worth of weigth, in its pocket or something, so you can carry another bag full of goodies on his back.

In short, that's an exploit. A small one. I think if it's ever fixed you will not be allowed to put a backpack with items inside in the inventory and not on the back, that would make sense. You could empty it first, so if you were prevented to put it into your inventory that would have been a non issue. You choose to exploit the game (not blaming you it was also a mistake on your part, and it's not major) by putting the pack full in someone inventory's. And it's not supposed to work that way.

Just like putting bag inside bag may make items disappear. That's not supposed to work that way.



In the first case there is debate about wether or not it should be fixed. But in the 2nd case I think it should. You can do it by mistake, and then you have trouble solving it. I know I already swapped fulll backpack, and I had to swap them back to empty them. It's usually minor, but in the case of someone stealing a garru backpack, it's not that minor anymore.
Exploit you do on purpose is one thing. Exploits you can do by mistake is another.

[stuguy909]

my recomendation was programming terminology that prevents someone from opening a sack that wasn't on their back. If the bag was in the inventory, popping something out of a stack means you pop out the top most item in the stack, like a Pez dispenser, which is like an array but pop the top, insert the rear, where as array requires you to designate a position ID, or loop through it with a for or while statement. The backpack, as far as the game is concerned, is simply an array, or multidimensional array if they are recording sprite postions as well. If they convert the array to a stack, an additional menu would likely have to be made to pop items out one at a time into cargo, inventory, etc. If it is converted to a regular array, the contents can be manipulated in a list menu and moved where needed, but nothing can be put IN the backpack unless it is mounted on the proper location and the array converted back into multi-dimensional form. Essentially, the solution must be hard coded, which shouldn't take a programmer but 30 minutes to an hour for something this basic.

edit: I just realized, they can pop all items out to the ground. That's so simple...pain in the butt for us at the moment, but at least we can steal the packs, run, and sort it out later.

[Aurelia]

Автор сообщения: Erei

I think the backpack aren't done yet. The reason I can imagine for not being to open the backpack in the inventory is probably because we are not supposed to put item on them while they are not on your back. When they are in the inventory they are kinda folded and stuff. I can't imagine a folded bag not on my my pack being full of items.
Balance wise, doing so allow you to carry way much than you would, and basically multiply your people's inventory.

True, though the encumberance reduction only applies when it's equipped. Just as you can carry armors, weapons, and a barrel of water, the backpack is still a single item. Disregarding the fact that we have an inventory altogether and magical hands to hold the items within it, it's not unreasonable to think that if you can "hold" onto an empty bag, you can hold the same bag filled with items. The only difference really being how much it encumbers you.
When i was in highschool for example, If I tried carrying around my backpack full of books on me anywhere but strapped to my back, i'd ware out pretty quickly. But it was still just a bag, able to lifted and carried around, and sometimes other people carried my backpack for me, while they had their own backpack on their back.

It could go either way, really. I wouldn't have much grief not being able to place item filled bags in our inventory, and I think it would add a bit to gameplay - people having to drop their backpack and pick it up after a fight, but i could see it being justified aswell. You can only really fit so many bags in your inventory. Aside from the problem of being able to place bags inside bags (which shouldn't be possible), I couldn't really see this being a problem.

As for having filled backpacks being able to be placed in the inventory being an "exploit", that would be based on intent of deliverance. Again, i'm honestly ok with either. If people think it would be more "balancing", then I've no real complaints about it.

[Erei]

Putting a backpack destined to animals that can't be used on someone's back, with the ability to store more than any backpack in the game (due to item stacking and their sheer size) sound like an exploit to me.

[stuguy909]

No animal backpacks on human backpack slot. Not sure where you are seeing this in my writing? Misc inventory is the standard inventory box all humans get. Putting animal backpacks in that slot is like you are holding it in your hands, trying to move it.

[Erei]

Автор сообщения: stuguy909

No animal backpacks on human backpack slot. Not sure where you are seeing this in my writing? Misc inventory is the standard inventory box all humans get. Putting animal backpacks in that slot is like you are holding it in your hands, trying to move it.

You are holding a backpack for pack animals. In your hand. Full of items that you couldn't possibly carry on you otherwise.
I mean, we use pack animal for a reason. Not only real life, but also for gameplay balance.

If you were meant to carry that much, then why is it limited to animals backpack ? Why do we even have pack animals in the first place ? Not only that, but you can carry MORE than a pack animal by carrying your own backpack on top of it.

Now, for pushing the boundaries of ridiculousness, you know, for science, you can do that AND carry a dead body with whom you did the same (animal backpack full + its own pack). Granted, you might move slowly, but on the other hand you'll have crazy strength soon.
On a side note, you are now carrying about 3-4 pack animals worth of stuff. On your own. That's damn impressive. And probably intended. I don't see the exploit. Nope.

[stuguy909]

it's the weight. The weight system is gamey, so your gripe isn't necessarily the inventory but the weight distribution being unrealistic. A large bull can carry and pull over a thousand pounds, where as an extremely fit large male could maybe carry 500 a short distance, about 150 pounds if they are a well trained soldier. For the sake of playing a game and looting a pack, I say, just pop items out on the floor, or into available inventory. I am not asking for doubling up on packs, or packing packs with more packs and cheating weight. I am suggesting that we can pull an animal pack into the misc inventory, find a nice hiding spot, and pop out the items so we don't have to find the animal for it and open that way. If you don't think people should carry the ladden pack, that's one thing, it would make sense a man can't grab 1000 pounds of packs on a large bull. But this isn't the case in the game. Merchant packs for humans simply carry higher stacks of goods than animal packs, and that's no fair balance either.

[Erei]

Автор сообщения: stuguy909

it's the weight. The weight system is gamey, so your gripe isn't necessarily the inventory but the weight distribution being unrealistic. A large bull can carry and pull over a thousand pounds, where as an extremely fit large male could maybe carry 500 a short distance, about 150 pounds if they are a well trained soldier. For the sake of playing a game and looting a pack, I say, just pop items out on the floor, or into available inventory. I am not asking for doubling up on packs, or packing packs with more packs and cheating weight. I am suggesting that we can pull an animal pack into the misc inventory, find a nice hiding spot, and pop out the items so we don't have to find the animal for it and open that way. If you don't think people should carry the ladden pack, that's one thing, it would make sense a man can't grab 1000 pounds of packs on a large bull. But this isn't the case in the game. Merchant packs for humans simply carry higher stacks of goods than animal packs, and that's no fair balance either.

I don't think the weight is gamey. Carrying full plate of armor and 1-2m long steel sword is certainly going to weight a lot.
Also, no, the animals are the one carrying the most. Their backpack are as big as the biggest human can have, but they have the abiliy to stack items, which, in the end, make them carry more .
I mean, unless you exploit. Then you can put 2 animal backpack full in your inventory, then a large pack, and you carry 3 times as much than a pack animal.

I'm just saying the bag should be emptied first before being able to put it in the inventory. With an option to drop everything on the ground.

Just to put a comparison, our pack animals can carry up to 390kg (the Yak, on short distance), depending of the race and places (there are laws about animal cruelty). About 300kg for long distance (camel). Since it's something we are not doing as much, and we have laws to prevent abuse, it's difficult to find more datas, especially related to bull.

There aren't many people who are able to carry such a weight in their hand. Even less on long distance. In Kenshi, since there are no stamina, I can do it for days and I can go that way forever.
Now, imagine 3 time that, with one 300kg pack in each hand, and one in the back. Almost a ton.
Kenshi bulls are probably similar, perhaps they can carry a bit more, or a bit less.

[stuguy909]

I agree that animals carry crazy amounts of weight compared to people. But the fact remains we can carry fully laden animal packs and place them in human packs at a reduced weight IN GAME. I am advocating that backpacks with larger size, loaded with goods, CANNOT go into smaller back packs in Kenshi. This means an animal pack with just one item will not go into a human backpack of any size, except maybe a dog back pack found in a mod. This would help prevent weight exploitation. I would still argue that the animal pack be placeable in misc inventory, simply because the pack would not get a weight reduction bonus on top of a weight reduction bonus.

ALSO, to prevent gaming the system, the programmer should add a condition to the weight reduction bonus that checks if the pack is equipped in the backpack slot. Only IF the pack is properly equipped should the backpack reduce weight. This means, if I steathily knock out a trade Garru and steal his pack before his owner shows up, I can carry the fully laden, but heavy ass pack in my misc inventory and slowly sneak away to empty the contents at my own leisure.

[Hatsune Neko Gaming]

Автор сообщения: stuguy909

I am advocating that backpacks with larger size, loaded with goods, CANNOT go into smaller back packs in Kenshi.

This is a known exploit and has been around for the past 4 years ( i suspect the entier time of development which is longer then 4 years ) i been here moderating the forums and playing the game.

Use this exploit at your own risk as the game can bug out and eat items inside other backpacks that are inside other backpacks.

[stuguy909]

Автор сообщения: HaTsUnE_NeKo

Автор сообщения: stuguy909

I am advocating that backpacks with larger size, loaded with goods, CANNOT go into smaller back packs in Kenshi.

This is a known exploit and has been around for the past 4 years ( i suspect the entier time of development which is longer then 4 years ) i been here moderating the forums and playing the game.

Use this exploit at your own risk as the game can bug out and eat items inside other backpacks that are inside other backpacks.

i am aware this is an exploit. but this thread is advocating the ability to open animal packs that are not on the animal's back. The backpack is hardcoded to give X% of weight reduction. The weight reduction property can be set in the editor. Judging from the editor's properties and theorizing how the game handles the code, most of the work is already done here. A simple IF statement would permit the getter for backpack weight reduction when the event handler for equipping or moving backpack in inventory is executed. It's less than 3 lines of code max, mostly white space. I am dumbfounded that this has taken 4 years.

[Hatsune Neko Gaming]

if it was as easy as 3 lines of code then it would have been fixed long ago. which could mean its a larger problum then you might think. this is mostly becasue we dont have access to the code so we dont know why its not done. which means it could be that easy or we dont know why its not done by now.

never asume its as easy as doing this or that, since we are not programing the game. and the core engine of the game was created by the Dev. it was not an off the shelf game engine like you can get easaly these days.

[stuguy909]

Any percentage value being applied to a calculated number in an effort to reduce or increase said value can easily be bypassed or applied with a simple IF statement in most any programming language. Java, C#, C++, C, Python, Javascript, VB.NET, and Ruby, I have done easier things taking a deuce. The simpler explanation is that it hasn't been done because the developer hasn't deemed it necessary to be changed. Or, they have to pay a programmer to do it, and it isn't worth their time to change things that aren't broke. Not every "developer" on steam has been or has competant programmers. Many "developers" hire third party companies from India, China, Poland, Spain, Czech Republic, or Argentina to build their games. I certainly hope Kenshi isn't the case.

[Erei]

Kenshi was started by a single person who did all the code himself. Later on he took more people with him.

I'm fairly certain he knows how to code his own game.