New engine

[Chaz]

So, they said something about porting to unreal. but in the cons they listed modding will be harder... Would there be another thing on the launcher, like with rendering, which I think is useless. I.E. select between the current engine and the "Unbelieveable" engine

[Tux]

Escrito originalmente por Shidan:

Escrito originalmente por Tux:

first off I seriously doubt Unity has 'limitations' as you off handly suggest that it does.
second off lo-fi is not the kind of developer, frankly, that can handle very high end alterations. This is absolutly without question one of the developers who would need as much help as they can get. I mean come on!
Oxygen Not Included vs Kenshi from a technical view point? not even the same ball park, ONI makes this game look like a kid did it

I have NEVER seen ANY Unreal game that suggests to me that is has more to offer a game then Unity does. not one game shines as 'oh wow if Unity only could do that'

You can believe what you want. I'm personally going to believe the people from the industry making those claims though. I've never worked with either engine, and by the sounds of things neither have you. So our thoughts on how it might work would be purely based on the experience of those who have.

Please note, I never once even implied that Lo-Fi would guaranteed make a fantastic game out of the Unreal engine, only that the engine has the power to do it. Kenshi itself has a ton of problems, many of which are caused by the poor engine, many of which are the fault of developer decisions.

They are not perfect, and they've made plenty of mistakes along the way. But I'm interested to see what they can do with a powerful engine, and the knowledge of past failures.

I didnt say what you posted was wrong, I said your interpreation of it is

'more complex' does NOT mean 'more powerful' or 'can do more' YOU are the one who wants to believe that it means that.

but again..if Unity is for amatures (which I think is silly) then without question Lo-Fi should be using it.
On technical aspects they are amatures compared to 7 days to die, oxygen not included, cities skylines, subnautica, stranded deep, Empyrion - Galactic Survival, Rust, Green Hell, The Forest

[Tux]

Escrito originalmente por HaTsUnE_NeKo:

kenshi is made from C++, so the Dev already knows the coding. and it seams he knows enough to easily get around in Unreal.
and that mess you keep referring to is a custom made engine using Ogre. The Dev was fixing more engine issues then game issues.

here is the thing.

7 days to die, oxygen not included, cities skylines, subnautica, stranded deep, Empyrion - Galactic Survival, Rust, Green Hell, The Forest
are created by Unity, those developers on a technical level are light years better than Lo-Fi. This game is fun and I like it, but technically speaking its one of the sloppist I have ever played. So selecting what you think is the most powerful and deep engine for experts is absolutly NOT the engine he should be selecting.

and in my personal opinion as a web developer of 13 years for businesses I personally think C# is better than C++ however to be fair I do not do deep dive coding.

[Hatsune Neko Gaming]

well that's your personal opinion.
me, im just gonna wait and see what the Dev does with the unreal engine he chose.

and this constant bashing of the Devs is starting to get old.
so please stop.
critiquing them is fine, but that's not what you are doing.

[Tux]

Escrito originalmente por HaTsUnE_NeKo:

well that's your personal opinion.
me, im just gonna wait and see what the Dev does with the unreal engine he chose.

and this constant bashing of the Devs is starting to get old.
so please stop.
critiquing them is fine, but that's not what you are doing.

fair enough on your first point on your second point I am just pointing out that when people start talking about amature vs pro they really should be honest about Lo Fi. I play games that are clunkly and I enjoy them and this is one of them I really like this game. but when we start talking about technical, to implicitly suggest games like 7 days to die, oxygen not included, cities skylines, subnautica, stranded deep, Empyrion - Galactic Survival, Rust, Green Hell, The Forest are made on amature engines but lofi is the real pro is not being honest.

Unity gets a lot of crap from AAA fans and people who listen to the crap AAA developers spew out and it really gets my blood boiling. Ironically AAA are now starting to use Unity

but for the most part I agree we are at an impass

[Poop King]

OFc its the developer's choice and I respect that, but I would have chosen whichever engine is not just better graphically but the easiest one to mod.

[Hatsune Neko Gaming]

game makers have to start some place, Chris started on his own. for like 13 years he worked on Kenshi. and it wasn't until 2014 when he started getting a team together. in 4 years the game went from bare bones to what we got now

and as i have said before, ( and Shidan ) it does have issues. due to the engine and things the Dev did. no development team is the same. so it's best to stop comparing them.

and each title you keep mentioning had/has a much larger development team at the start, unlike Kenshi, which was for the most part, made by one person. and he learned how to code while making Kenshi.

[Locklave]

Crazy conversation, lots of technical stuff I know jack about lol. Bare with me on the direction I'm about to go. Which engine would be less likely to burn out the dev?

I mean going for a better one that's harder to use would have a price on the devs body/mind. I get that we haven't heard about this issue around here but it happens to the best devs.

I hope that gets factored.

[Tux]

Escrito originalmente por HaTsUnE_NeKo:

game makers have to start some place, Chris started on his own. for like 13 years he worked on Kenshi. and it wasn't until 2014 when he started getting a team together. in 4 years the game went from bare bones to what we got now

and as i have said before, ( and Shidan ) it does have issues. due to the engine and things the Dev did. no development team is the same. so it's best to stop comparing them.

and each title you keep mentioning had/has a much larger development team at the start, unlike Kenshi, which was for the most part, made by one person. and he learned how to code while making Kenshi.

here are the assumptions you are making not based on you knowing factually.

1. That despite the technicals of this game and those technical struggles (again I am speaking technically here not game design) is not related to his competency as a developer
2. That the dev teams of all the games I have posted are in fact large.

You and I both actually have zero idea whatsoever what lofis actual competency is. However, if one is to suggest that Unity is for amatures and Unreal is for pros then it really begs the question of 'how do we really know based on what we have played and seen outputted that lofi is a pro and not an amature

again as before, I like to point to concrete evidence of output not theory crafting.

and to be clear, I like this game a lot and I am glad he was able to do a life long dream however I take offense frankly at the implict suggestion that Unity is for amatures and lofi is the pro that is up for the challenge of Unreal

that is not 'trashing the dev' that is being realistic

EDIT: also I should point out I am a self taught business application developer of 13 years, so I totally respect and understand a person who wants to make a game and puts in a great deal of effort, when I see a game I enjoy and I see the miner mining away from the rock or even inside the rock I get it, he is working on it, making it better, I understand that because I have been there. But I do take offense at the implied suggestion that he is an expert and Unity developers are not.

[Chaz]

big page big scary. but my question about the second part, which I don't think was answered. Something about switching between engines on the launcher. Like switching the card you use to render the game. I don't think it has been answered.

[Hatsune Neko Gaming]

wait, stop
no one has ever said he is a expect. no one has. and you keep pushing unity hard core, like the Dev has to use it because you think he has to because you think he is a amature.

and not a single person here has said anything bad about unity. we only made comparisons to Unity and Unreal. that's it.

so please, tone it way down. and im mean fully.

[Shidan]

Nobody implied Unity is only for amateurs, I only said it was easy for even amateurs to pick up. Professional teams also use it when they want something simple and easy to use, or want to avoid the months or years of learning required for the more complex engines. I personally know some professional developers who work in Unity, I'm in no way implying they are amateurs or anything. Just that the tools are easy to use.

However, the fact that the Lo-Fi devs actually managed to churn out a somewhat stable piece of work is remarkable considering the hurdles that were required, is a testament to how experienced they are. They've spent the last 13 wrangling in a pretty poorly built engine, written in an archaic and complicated programming language. And yet despite that, they managed to actually produce a decent game, even if flawed and janky. An actual amateur cannot do that.

So I have no doubt they're up to the challenge of using Unreal. They've been dealing with a PITA engine for so long anyway, written in the same programming language. Whether they'll make a stable and quality product in it, that will be the true test of their abilities. If the game is janky and horribly buggy now, that would be more on the devs than the engine.

[Tux]

Escrito originalmente por Dogzrkewl22:

big page big scary. but my question about the second part, which I don't think was answered. Something about switching between engines on the launcher. Like switching the card you use to render the game. I don't think it has been answered.

that would be a lot of unnecessary work I know that much.
From a player standpoint I dont think there would be a huge difference in experience of game play. The issue between one engine or the other is more about the development side, how long it takes to do xyz.
becuase I am biased toward Unity I will give a few Unity examples of what I am getting at.
take a look at Green Hell and ask yourself, is Unity going to really be a bad experience gameplay wise compared to Unreal? I dont think it would.
so again, engine selection in my view is far less about game play experience, its more about development.

So for example, if I am creating an application in Visual Studio (which is what I work in) vs say Notepad ++ I can technically create the same application using either method, but NotePad++ would take me decades to produce something.
I am not equating etiher engine with NotePad ++ I am just illustrating a example

[Poop King]

Only modding I've done before is learning XML spreadsheet editing to make a full overhaul of Civ 4. I wish I was clever enough to write actual code but I'm not. I tried learning comp science at A levels and dropped it due to being too hard for me, and I failed maths.

I mostly want easier modding so everyone else can make me loads of lovely mods.

[Tux]

Escrito originalmente por Shidan:

Nobody implied Unity is only for amateurs, I only said it was easy for even amateurs to pick up. Professional teams also use it when they want something simple and easy to use, or want to avoid the months or years of learning required for the more complex engines. I...

this is implicitly suggesting that lofi is more up to such a challenge while the fun pimps are not.

and I think the inverse is more likely true

also I should point out that the 'Unity is more for amatures' is a moniker that used to be true but is no longer true.

I encourage you to take a look at some videos of Green Hell which is made in Unity

[Tux]

Escrito originalmente por Console derps suck:

Only modding I've done before is learning XML spreadsheet editing to make a full overhaul of Civ 4. I wish I was clever enough to write actual code but I'm not. I tried learning comp science at A levels and dropped it due to being too hard for me, and I failed maths.

as a side note to modding, interesting fact, Space Engineers has literally 100% of its code available to modding.
that is very rare...I think. which reminds me, I should take a look seeing that its writen in .Net which I know, although to be fair the Classes I use in web dev are likely completely different than in a game