MP5 vs MP7 damage comparisions needs adjustment (If going by what experts in law enforcement say)

[MeoWeoMeow]

7 comes after 5......lol so why does the SWAT perk have the mp5 damage to be more than mp7... ? Even gun shows like "future weapons" said the 7 is far superior:

mp5 ; 9x19 para (does not go through hard walls)

vs

mp7 ; created to improve HK mp5 uses 4.6 ( shoots through level 2 kevlar, and international +NATO ballistic helms )

Muzzle velocity:

mp5- 900 ft/sec velocity

vs

mp7- 2378 ft/sec.

effective range and penatrating fire power of the mp7 surpasses the mp5 "more than two times higher."
if the update made the damage for mp5 to somewhere 26, then mp7 should be something like 50 or so, not 16.

besides...my friend's uncle was a police chief and said that the round could travel in the target's blood stream, making the 4.6 not just the better cailber but also the deadlier, which is why some countries ban civilians from having it. These are just some of the obvious reasons why HK prices the gun at a steeper price than the mp5.

I would like to see some sort of adjust ment to mirror these facts
referance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7TmgyiLoY4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOkJE7IGs-w

[plumboby]

yeah but the whole balance of swat has become the tank behind zerker which is better than it was not like it was 6 months ago same as med now swat i have found very tanky even & lower levels the mp7 & mp5 need a buff

[Carbohydrates]

The energy carried by the bullet is far more important than its velocity, which is a factor of ballistic energy and penetration, not a meaningful number on its own. 4.6x30 carries about 373 ft lbs of pressure, whereas 9x19 carries 420 ft lbs using standard 115gr ball. Add to that the 95% larger wound channel (expansion not being a factor when talking about penetrator and FMJ ammunition) and you'll find 9x19 is capable of far more damage to soft targets.

If you're campaigning hard for some sort of in-game representation of its armor piercing characteristics, you'll need to apply that to the P90 as well.

I'm not even gonna touch that "traveling in the bloodstream" nonsense except to say: how on earth would a bullet traveling over 2200 FPS penetrating nearly 12 inches from 25 yards wind up stopped in someone's bloodstream in the first place? It's ridiculous.

[Dr.Xance]

Guys the MP7 it´s on first tier because in KF1 was the tier 1 too

[Aino]

Dear OP. Velocity is not all that matters for firepower. Sure the MP7 penetrates more, but the round is also tiny and very light compared to the 9x19mm of the MP5.

So, let's look at the ballistic performance, aye?
The 4.6x30mm will achieve higher velocities, BUT due to the low weight of the round... the MP5 would deliver a bit more energy on impact. Now that's something to consider... But it won't be the reason why the 9mm is stronger, no. There's something else.

There is another important detail. The MP7 is suppressed. And the rounds do not have a loud bang, meaning the MP7 uses a subsonic* load. That, dear kitten, means less velocity, less penetration and less energy.

The average velocity of the MP7's 4.6mm rounds is roughly 680m/s. The speed of sound is ~330m/s. More than twice as slow. I'll repeat. The MP7 is suppressed, so the rounds travel UNDER the speed of sound. If you use ammo that is faster, the suppressor does NOT hide the loud crack when the shot breaks the speed barrier and causes a sonic boom. It is safe to say that in-game it uses a subsonic load. And with that detail, all that penetration? Gone.

Average velocity of the MP5's 9x19mm? At ~385m/s it is slower, but the mass allows for MORE energy to be delivered than a full velocity MP7 round. As a side note that also means the MP5 is a much better firearm to suppress, where with the MP7 it is actually a bad idea to run a suppressor.

But guess what? The MP5 is not suppressed. MP7 is.
And that, dear kitten, is why the MP7 is overrated in terms of comparing IRL performance and its in-game damage output.

*Subsonic - Travelling under the speed of sound

(I'm sad to say your friend's uncle is not an expert)

[Logos Ideation]

Modern supperssors do not slow the velocity of bullets down. In fact, modern suppressors increase velocity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WPHcqr6dcI

[HiTmAn]

mp7 is made for sure kill that why wide world terrorist use it same as p90....uzi....easy to handle very deadlly

[Carbohydrates]

Originally posted by Recreational Fascism:

Modern supperssors do not slow the velocity of bullets down.

His point was that, since the gun's report does not have a supersonic crack, then the bullets must already be traveling at a subsonic velocity. I think that particular argument could be handwaved with the fact that video games never emulate suppressor sounds correctly.

[Aino]

Originally posted by Recreational Fascism:

Modern supperssors do not slow the velocity of bullets down. In fact, modern suppressors increase velocity.

The reason for that is simple. Longer barrels allow for higher velocities thanks to having a longer distance to build up speed. A suppressor does indeed also work as a barrel extension, improving accuracy.

However, an actual barrel extension is much more practical than a suppressor if one needs that longer barrel.

But I digress. I'll add to my point that most of the targets are unarmoured. The 9mm delivers more energy on impact, and leaves a much, much larger wound than the 4.6mm would. In fact the 4.6 leaves a nice and clean wound. And we clearly see in-game unless you hit the metal bits, all rounds make an entry, and it's more of a matter of destroying the thing utterly than a single small hole in the brain.

So even if we were to be taking realism even further under the wrong assumption MP7 uses supersonic ammo in this game. MP7 should do less damage than it does now, even still and simply ignore zeds' resistances more.

So in the end none of it matters. The MP7 is still the worse weapon compared to the MP5 against the Zeds.

[plumboby]

nah not tru they are on par i found the mp7 fully let zeds have it i have taken out scrakes & fleshpounds quite easily as easy as the mp5. I find zed time is where the mp7 shines its quite but time it with ur perks the mp7 is brutal but smooth if u can line up 10 mixed lower line up of zeds & just pop burst their heads pop as zeds drop where the mp5 the rest of the smgs swat use they have more power more recoil where the mp7 is the mini supressed uzi built to handle kiting & tanking as swat is for an armoured walking tank. Same as comando i find the dirty old ar15 with lvl25 comanndo for teir 1 weapon on par with the mp7 light clears trash. I been off perking swat with my commando with zed extension & perks set where i usually have a mp7 on most load outs where it nails trash that teleport. As for an update they need to incorporate twin mp7s as a perk tie in to mix up the swat perk a bit of a walking sentry gun they do it with gunslinger be nice to see twin mp7s for a high perk or some achievment or perk setting drop the 2 9mm pistols perk but make it twin mp7 . At perks lvl25 the unlimited ammo in zed time make it if its activated u can carry & use a 2nd mp7 the only benifit u really gain is in zed time but make it more intresting. Be some intresting perk set outs every1 uses their perks diffrently. As to anything TWI has done a good job with the mp7 in how they introduced it in2 KF2 its a fav of mine to use any loadout.

[Logos Ideation]

Originally posted by Pronotum:

Originally posted by Recreational Fascism:

Modern supperssors do not slow the velocity of bullets down. In fact, modern suppressors increase velocity.

The reason for that is simple. Longer barrels allow for higher velocities thanks to having a longer distance to build up speed. A suppressor does indeed also work as a barrel extension, improving accuracy.

However, an actual barrel extension is much more practical than a suppressor if one needs that longer barrel.

But I digress. I'll add to my point that most of the targets are unarmoured. The 9mm delivers more energy on impact, and leaves a much, much larger wound than the 4.6mm would. In fact the 4.6 leaves a nice and clean wound. And we clearly see in-game unless you hit the metal bits, all rounds make an entry, and it's more of a matter of destroying the thing utterly than a single small hole in the brain.

So even if we were to be taking realism even further under the wrong assumption MP7 uses supersonic ammo in this game. MP7 should do less damage than it does now, even still and simply ignore zeds' resistances more.

So in the end none of it matters. The MP7 is still the worse weapon compared to the MP5 against the Zeds.

Actually, the reason has to do with the fact the the old suppressors had rubber inserts that by friction slowed the velocity of the bullets.

Modern supressors no longer have the inserts and instead have channels to take in the gases, as does the extra length as you stated.

[Survii Gecko]

Smaller=Worse
Its TWIs logic and you have to live with it

[MeoWeoMeow]

Originally posted by Carbohydrates:

The energy carried by the bullet is far more important than its velocity, which is a factor of ballistic energy and penetration, not a meaningful number on its own. 4.6x30 carries about 373 ft lbs of pressure, whereas 9x19 carries 420 ft lbs using standard 115gr ball. Add to that the 95% larger wound channel (expansion not being a factor when talking about penetrator and FMJ ammunition) and you'll find 9x19 is capable of far more damage to soft targets.

If you're campaigning hard for some sort of in-game representation of its armor piercing characteristics, you'll need to apply that to the P90 as well.

I'm not even gonna touch that "traveling in the bloodstream" nonsense except to say: how on earth would a bullet traveling over 2200 FPS penetrating nearly 12 inches from 25 yards wind up stopped in someone's bloodstream in the first place? It's ridiculous.

yeah but police chief said because the casings are off, the bullets can travel- keep in mind when the rounds are fired, they no longer have casing, and it is small enough to lodge in arteries. Thats why law enforcements frawn on the mp7, because they want it off the streets, and it is illegal to own in some places. I'm not asking for a large damage boost, but its hard to kill flesh pounds with an mp 7 on harder difficulties... moreoften the larger zeds just strug it off and get angry- i'd rather just use a xbow or ebr as an off perk weapon. Thanks for your thoughts, they were very thoughtful, and it also got me thinking if it was a lie.

[panzertek CS-BL.com]

Originally posted by Survii Gecko:

Smaller=Worse
Its TWIs logic and you have to live with it

then zeds would all die in 1 shot to the head apart from SC and FP, who would need a little more to stop the brain, but nothing that the 9mm pistol couldn't provide, but if we applied realism then it wouldn't be fun

[plumboby]

u can kill a fp easy with the mp7 just aim for the head may take 2 lots of rounds depends what perk ur using to mp7 is my fav off perk for commando & zerk i use with both mixes up my load outs but i have noticed i survive a lot more on HOE headshots mp7 to trash clots time it right can decap 6 off 1 shot its how u play & every wave issnt the same

[CLG]

Realism aside I feel that the mp5 isnt very good. The optics are a serious downgrade from the mp7. Swat overall is a really busted perk right now. Vector and p90 are just way too good.