It should not be possible to change perks mid-game

[Larry the Cacodemon]

It removes any need to stay as a single perk. Some perks are clearly better in the early game and others are clearly better in the late game. At the moment there is zero reason to actually play a whole match as the same perk. 90% of the time I just start a match as SWAT or berserker and then switch to another perk once I have gotten some money and sell my original guns. Then I can dominate as the other perks that are better in the late game.

The game should force you to pick one perk and stick with it during the match or else there is no reason to not just cycle between different perks during a match thus allowing you to take advantage of all their strenghts while ignoring all the weaknesses.

[[NT]D@niel]

nice try, but, it will never happen

[FALLENV3GAS]

Or you can just not change your perk. No reason to force you into something for no reason. What if someone leaves, they could be a perk your team needs like a medic, and no one else can fill in that gap. You are screwed then.

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by Karl The Butcher ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥:

90% of the time I just start a match as SWAT or berserker and then switch to another perk once I have gotten some money and sell my original guns. Then I can dominate as the other perks that are better in the late game.

Or you could just play for fun and a challenge instead of trying to min-max the easiest win. Heck I use off perk weapons like the 1911 pistol in the late game because I like the aiming challenge.

If your goal is an easy game, just play on normal. :D

Originally posted by Karl The Butcher ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥:

The game should force you to pick one perk and stick with it during the match or else there is no reason to not just cycle between different perks during a match thus allowing you to take advantage of all their strenghts while ignoring all the weaknesses.

I would say the cost of buying a new weapon loadout is a drawback to "just cycle between different perks during a match". Sure changing once when you empty your starting weapons, okay. But changing again after you have a full gunslinger or support loadout? That becomes expensive, and leaves you no money to give to teammates who die, or late joiners etc.

All in all I don't see this as a problem.

[Bad Harmony]

First off, there is no such thing like perks effective "early or later on", but there are perks effective in certain roles rather than others, and better trash killers, that earn a lot more, regardless of the wave. Second, it wouldn't be fair for players that i.e. want to switch to another perk when situation needs it (for example the medic leaves the game and someone takes his place the next round).

The only way I'd agree about was if game forced you to choose a perk that is not taken already by someone else. I'm sick tired to see 3 commandos/demos/zerks in same team that play on their own ignoring any concept of teamplay.

[Larry the Cacodemon]

Originally posted by |<Bad Harmony☯:

First off, there is no such thing like perks effective "early or later on",

Wrong. Demo is borderline useless in early waves (I can't even stay alive as demoman without buying a 1911) but becomes god once he has the M16 and RPG.

[Bad Harmony]

Originally posted by Karl The Butcher ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥:

Wrong. Demo is borderline useless in early waves (I can't even stay alive as demoman without buying a 1911) but becomes god once he has the M16 and RPG.

Git gud then. You'd be surprised of the effectiveness of grenade pistol for self defense and crowd control, if you use it properly. I can use it just fine and I save enough to buy a M79 within the fist 3 waves. Also, the fact of being easily surrounded is always the weak point of demo, regardless of wave and your arsenal. I rest my case.

[Larry the Cacodemon]

Originally posted by |<Bad Harmony☯:

Originally posted by Karl The Butcher ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥:

Wrong. Demo is borderline useless in early waves (I can't even stay alive as demoman without buying a 1911) but becomes god once he has the M16 and RPG.

Git gud then. You'd be surprised of the effectiveness of grenade pistol for self defense and crowd control, if you use it properly. I can use it just fine and I save enough to buy a M79 within the fist 3 waves. Also, the fact of being easily surrounded is always the weak point of demo, regardless of wave and your arsenal. I rest my case.

Not after the M16 was added.

[SupurDave]

I would say that changing perk skills mid game is a bigger problem. for example I play swat and start with the skills that give me 100 armor and dual pistols just for the equip boost, then ditch those skills as soon as possible. this seems more like exploiting the system but I do it because I can and it gives me free stuff with no drawback. perhaps adding a small cost to reskill or change class (100 dosh?) would make changing less appealing.

[Koski]

Changing perks mid game has been, and always will be, a big part of this game. You do gain a slight advantage by changing perks around wave 3-4, nothing wrong with that, but as others have voiced. It is very bad for your team if you keep selling loadouts and switching because you are not distrubuting the wealth around.

Think of it like LoL or experience gain, the dosh we have is "exp", everytime you sell off weapon loadouts your deciding to lose 50% of the "exp" you put into those to have the points to "buy something else" ( I know selling starter weapons doesn't equate into this but I have no issue with that )

Granted in KF2 it's dosh and you can give it to teamates and ♥♥♥♥. Medic used to start with armor all the time, I see nothing wrong if you want to start SWAT then switch. There are tons of factors in this game that make it very hard, and only a few that make it easier, use all of them you can.

The first perk change (obviously beneficial to you) all of them after that are tough choices about finance and longetevity of the team.

[CBA]

oops
was gonna search for something but typed it in the wrong box xD

[AoDGTr]

why would you say this? that's complete nonsense... ofc that swat and zerk is better early game than anything else but what can a swat do on boss wave? why would you bring your swat on boss wave when you can bring demo and kill the ♥♥♥♥ out of that patriarch / hans

[SupurDave]

Originally posted by AoDGTr:

why would you say this? that's complete nonsense... ofc that swat and zerk is better early game than anything else but what can a swat do on boss wave? why would you bring your swat on boss wave when you can bring demo and kill the ♥♥♥♥ out of that patriarch / hans

I actually like having a swat on boss wave. he can quickly dispose of trash and keep a constant spray of bullets on the boss. This is particularly useful when the patriarch tries to cloak and run. bullets bouncing off the cloak highlight the target for the team.

[MP5]

Originally posted by Karl The Butcher ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥:

Originally posted by |<Bad Harmony☯:

Git gud then. You'd be surprised of the effectiveness of grenade pistol for self defense and crowd control, if you use it properly. I can use it just fine and I save enough to buy a M79 within the fist 3 waves. Also, the fact of being easily surrounded is always the weak point of demo, regardless of wave and your arsenal. I rest my case.

Not after the M16 was added.

No good demo uses the M16, really. You shouldn't have any issues staying alive in the early waves if you stay with your team mates. Not sure what difficulty you play but on suicidal you can afford the M79 after the first wave, maybe after the second if you're unlucky or nobody can spare like 50.

[screeno42]

Originally posted by Karl The Butcher ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥:

Originally posted by |<Bad Harmony☯:

Git gud then. You'd be surprised of the effectiveness of grenade pistol for self defense and crowd control, if you use it properly. I can use it just fine and I save enough to buy a M79 within the fist 3 waves. Also, the fact of being easily surrounded is always the weak point of demo, regardless of wave and your arsenal. I rest my case.

Not after the M16 was added.

You over estimate the M16. The bulets certainly help, but not many demos chose it over the M79.

Originally posted by AoDGTr:

why would you bring your swat on boss wave when you can bring demo and kill the ♥♥♥♥ out of that patriarch / hans

Because Hans's melee and Patty's minigun shred perks that can't get out of the way or at least partially tank the damage(like demo) and swat can pump out a massive amount of dps into targets, be that a crowd of trash or a big boss(also, swat has bullet resistance and can be an armour tank).

[[NeW]hunted]

I agree it's silly seeing a team of 5+ swat wave 1 due to the bonus armour and extra 9mm to sell, but outside of a tournament mode or special achievement or such there's just too much dynamic in online play to force set perks.
As FALLENV3GAS pointed out, players can leave and new players join at any time during a game, and you can't (nor should you) force them to play the same perk that left.
That's also assuming the original team picked a combination that played to their strengths, which doesn't always happen.
Add to that, a game might start with one player, and build up to 6 over the waves, which tends to change the optimal composition.

Instead, we should probably focus on minimizing the incentive for swapping:
Second 9mm granted automatically should probably sell for nothing - similar situation to pipebombs in KF1, to keep the initial trader cash the same for all classes.

Some would still swap for 100 armour or first round survivability, but there wouldn't be a benefit of getting your other class weapons early anymore, so less people would bother.