Retaliation builds without Soldier

[Takeda]

It seems (and I'm totally prepared to be wrong ofc) that without the Soldier shield skills any other retaliation build is extremely hard to make viable.

What's needed to offset the loss of increased block chance and swifter block recovery time? Other class defensive options just don't seem to be as good sadly.

It seems that the enhanced shield performance is more critical cos it's always there whereas other classes can and do add deathbreakers or heals or w/e, but the frequency with which heavy hits are coming through means you exhaust the survival CDs in short order.

[Faust Wither]

why not hitting back enemy ordo a lifesteal while enemy take damage from your retaliation?

[punchobastardo]

Not true, Sentinel has shield and TONS of acid retalliation, you should try it because a) it's awesome and b) very fun seeing everything melt in beautiful acid :)

[Takeda]

Originally posted by punchobastardo:

Not true, Sentinel has shield and TONS of acid retalliation, you should try it because a) it's awesome and b) very fun.

I have a Sentinel and in ultimate SR65 I get chewed to pieces, whereas my Warlord happily waltzed through.

The massive heal from Blood Dreeg with the fabulous amounts of retaliation is still not as consistent as life support as having the Soldier shield skills. Feel free to post your build though and I'll compare and see what I'm doing wrong.

Faust I do hit them - there's at least one retaliation constellation that requires you to attack to get the effects. But it's - in my experience - impossible to retain the DA needed to survive and build the OA and damage needed to make hitting stuff viable. Again post a build if you want to demonstrate something successful that shows the way.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Puncho is right, sentinel dmg boost and heal, going for more defensive devotion that might not with Soldier means Acid Sentinel becomes every bit as viable too, hardcore viable even if you be careful
i think death knight is an option too, haven't tried that myself yet but have seen builds where it's used, and thinking it hard Torment for absorb/butt save helper, and has the same benefit that assisted Occultist; more resist reduct
sure you will never be able to get the 6k armor and 100% block stuff without some massive sacrifices, but you shouldn't need it when you're slinging like 200kretal dmg with 90-100+ resist reducts
and remember, devotions or relic/gear can make up for a pretty a lot, so you should be able to get some circuit breakers and defenses high enough still that you can survive "anything"

[Takeda]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

Puncho is right, sentinel dmg boost and heal, going for more defensive devotion that might not with Soldier means Acid Sentinel becomes every bit as viable too, hardcore viable even if you be careful
i think death knight is an option too, haven't tried that myself yet but have seen builds where it's used, and thinking it hard Torment for absorb/butt save helper, and has the same benefit that assisted Occultist; more resist reduct
sure you will never be able to get the 6k armor and 100% block stuff without some massive sacrifices, but you shouldn't need it when you're slinging like 200kretal dmg with 90-100+ resist reducts
and remember, devotions or relic/gear can make up for a pretty a lot, so you should be able to get some circuit breakers and defenses high enough still that you can survive "anything"

I think my issue is that I don't mind taking advice but I don't want to copy metas - which leaves me in a kind of limbo where I don't know where it's worth sacrificing damage for defence. And maybe more importantly - what is worth dropping and taking. I follow the chats so I knew about vitality res for life reduction avoidance .. and I pick up info such as how enemy armour reads individual physical damage sources rather than as a homogeneous lump .. but yeah .. for all the time I've put into this game I think I'm still baffled more often than I am informed.

And to slightly divert - 6k armour and 100% chance to block? how in the name of all that is holy is that achieved?

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

6k armor with soldier/warlord and defensive setup is fairly easy, think my "offensive" warlord is running something like 5.5k lol
here is one of my takes on a acid retal Sentinel (pretty much just my modified warlord btw/idea was to try and "copy paste" as much from my warlord to my sentinel to see if it worked)
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/m23l4rnV 5k armor, 3100 DA, massive overcap on resist -and because we are a wuss (like if on hardcore) we are taking possession instead of Path of Three(less dmg tho) and such
^if you notice plenty of 1pointers you can move around even if you don't really want those, like if you want more DA shred in judgement, (also i'm not entirely sure i understand Smite's functionality correctly with RF+Retribution lol)
hell you can go Serenity relic instead if you want another circuit breaker thingy if you don't like absolution, and even possible to put Diamond in head too.or Absorb Seal in neck, plenty of room to switch/move both augments and a couple of components too -also used to use Judicators Seals (Open+Closed hand rings) before new rings, so can work with that too with some resist stuff swaps if you prefer that proc (proc not as good on solo fights like bosses or celestials tho)
this can/will kill anything, except for Crate (RiP Nedalla ) only "requires" a little augment swap for some
(PS if you are fine with resist overcaps you can even use the +defense augments instead if you prefer even more DA or HP even)

edit, oh right, forgot to mention, can go even more defensive devotions too, with ghoul and stuff. Ditching Messenger of War(loses dmg) means you free up more points you could potentially put in protective stuff, i used to have ghoul for instance on HC

edit edit: omg i just realized i had kept 11points in spirit from Warlord lol that's 11 more points in physique now )

[Serikos]

you may consider archon (shaman/oathkeeper) as it gets the health regen aura and bonus retaliation damage as well as other useful skills as well as an insane amount of energy regen.

[punchobastardo]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

6k armor with soldier/warlord and defensive setup is fairly easy, think my "offensive" warlord is running something like 5.5k lol

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/m23l4rnV

wow the set of the three is sick :D . Didn't know it even existed, maybe I should start farming at some point too lol. Mine was based on the set of perdition (94) and the rest pretty similar, except for the awesome rings of yours and the still missing Absolution blueprint, and it had around 4.5k armor, some 150k acid retalliation iirc and stuff.

Well Takeda didn't state initially that he was looking for the absolute best build for standing the max SR test easily, a thing that I couldn't test because I don't play SR or arenas in general, so thanks for coming by and proving my point showing a great build

[Takeda]

Originally posted by punchobastardo:

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

6k armor with soldier/warlord and defensive setup is fairly easy, think my "offensive" warlord is running something like 5.5k lol

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/m23l4rnV

wow the set of the three is sick :D :warhammer: . Didn't know it even existed, maybe I should start farming at some point too lol. Mine was based on the set of perdition (94) and the rest pretty similar, except for the awesome rings of yours and the still missing Absolution blueprint, and it had around 4.5k armor, some 150k acid retalliation iirc and stuff.

Well Takeda didn't state initially that he was looking for the absolute best build for standing the max SR test easily, a thing that I couldn't test because I don't play SR or arenas in general, so thanks for coming by and proving my point showing a great build

Yeah apologies puncho - I did deliberately steer away from specifics because I didn't want to be told what to do, I wanted something that was more akin to a discussion of concept.

Having said that, I think having spoken to gNuff!~©~gNom3™ (one day I'll have to ask him about that name!) a few times I've come to realise I'm being an idiot :)

I've been insisting on trying to make my builds from scratch, which is similar to me trying to invent the wheel over and over .. instead of building on a pool of existing expertise.

My Sentinel is also full Perdition (which I found to have superior armour) coupled with resist reductions and Bloody Pox to mitigate range threats. I trash normal crucible at at all levels but the stress of multiple attacks in ultimate SR makes her fold like a cheap deckchair.

gNuff!~©~gNom3™ builds great alts but like most people I guess I'd like to inflict my own individuality on a build, or ideally come up with something uniquely amazing. Having looked at his build it has prompted me to approach issues from a different place - for example:

I can't easily add more DA, but I can use Bloody Pox to reduce enemy OA. I'm not sure how interchangeable that is but it's made a difference.

I'm also guilty of not completing all those additional stat quests, so I'll be doing that so I have at least one dude who can farm up that Calla hat .. who wouldn't want that in a retal build eh :)

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

Originally posted by punchobastardo:

wow the set of the three is sick :D :warhammer: . Didn't know it even existed, maybe I should start farming at some point too lol. Mine was based on the set of perdition (94) and the rest pretty similar, except for the awesome rings of yours and the still missing Absolution blueprint, and it had around 4.5k armor, some 150k acid retalliation iirc and stuff.

Perdition is solid, i've done multiple builds that finished Ultimate and lvl 100 in "only" empowered Perdition, not even bothering with Mythical because it's just such a well rounded set even for taking up 5 pieces, and nice thing is it works for both Warlord and Sentinel leveling too

that right there was just an example, it's not even "the best", dmg wise or defensive, can switch plenty of stuff up, that's the good thing about it. Even for Relic you have something like Honor i think, lvl 70, which works great too, even gives you Vire Cascade, Absolution is just nice because it boost shield and retal, so defense and offense in one. But even others work, like Serenity too. Imo the "most" important part is just the +1 skill (pref to Oathkeeper), the rest is just flavour and gravy on top.
It might be a bit "boring" for some, but 3piece Stoneguard and 3 piece Three is just so "easy" to make work, offensively or defensively. There are other route to take, no stoneguard if you don't mind being a little more squishy, or 4 piece Three, which also rocks, specially with some conversion. The good part it's just various tweaks on a base set of bonuses that work "allround", Warlord, Sentinel, Witchblade, it's just awesome to form a base around and try to work things in different ways.
"no matter" how i try to make it seem like i have a "good idea", i somehow ended up with "the same" on multiple warlords lol. And it was mainly little differences, like different relic, medal, devotions etc, but the base gear somehow ended up the sorta the same ol' -"it just works"
Atm i'm trying a couple of different things to see if i can go there, hope is to get something like 200k acid retal(i don't really count the others in as 0 resist reducts makes it only a blip in dmg) -before proc buffs. And one where i'm i wanna try to max a ton of absorb in the hopes that, while sacrificing DA and Armor (bye bye 6karmor lol) the mass amount of absorb from different sources will still make it viable to survive "most" things, even if probably not everything like the defensive beast can

^the best part of it all is ofc you can craft the whole dang thing if can't get lucky enough to find it. Recipe for stoneguard belt, and scepter of the three and you go to blacksmith, craft whichever many you need for X pieces missing, then go and transmute whatever you didn't have in store, it's just such a wonderful setup because it works, powerful and manageable because can basically craft it from nothing.

There is just so much to work with in different ways depending on which "base" you choose, like i mentioned in the post to Takeda, even rings can be swapped. But gloves is also a possibility, and there are like 3 awesome medal that work in different ways, one which even adds a 12% Heal to using Overguard rofl. then if you ditch Stoneguard you suddenly get multiple necks, belts to work with, even the shields, it doesn't "have" to be Defender of the Three, you can swap stoneguard mace for Three scepter, then you can suddenly swap shield and still have 3 Sentinel set piece lol(or get 4ofc heh).
Retal build is just so versatile because there are so many different pieces that can work for the same class, and multiple classes at that. Not like somthing if you want to go Piercing Blademaster you are pretty much "forced" to go full Belgo if you want something decent. etc -and ofc if suddenly decide to try out Phys or Fire retal things just get switched up even more heh
Specially when you factor stuff in like conversion (which works on Retal now since FG), it just opens up "whatever" you wanna try, and the chances are, since Retal can be made tanky somewhat easily, is you can make it work somehow, even if dmg output might be a bit lower than others, because almost nomatter what, with retal you can be that walking porcupine fortress one way or another
^i was pretty happy with a sub 100k retal some time ago, then when things started to roll one suddenly discovers that hey, fortress porcupine doesn't even need to be half shabby and can have, every bit the hard shell while still being able to lash out. So much different gear that works for it and perdition is also a pretty great starter -hell i still use the gloves as you saw ;)

[Takeda]

Originally posted by gNuff!~©~gNom3™:

^i was pretty happy with a sub 100k retal some time ago, then when things started to roll one suddenly discovers that hey, fortress porcupine doesn't even need to be half shabby and can have, every bit the hard shell while still being able to lash out.

Yeah, I think another thing I'm guilty of is "over-pursuing" elements of a build. My Sent is -75% RR with 170k acid retal @2600% ... I'm sure that gives me plenty of room to dial back damage in favour of survival.

Gotta sort out my rings tho - much as I love em (Cronley poison/bleed rings with many resistances) they're not really right. I think part of the inertia many people experience in building is the massive investment in mats to make stuff that may or may not work.

There's only so many times you blow 40 plus ugdenbloom and seals on a not great change up, before you stop wanting to do it, or simply can't cos one more run through the Blood Grove for 1 seal is gonna drive you bonkers.

[gNuff!~©~gNom3™]

that's why it can be good to be crative with stuff like MI's
if it wasn't a Sentinel, i would have recommended an easy to grab Ikrix scale for a solid medal, 12% bonus heal on Overguard is just so handy in many situations for a Soldier oriented retal build/Witchblade/Warlord/Warder -but unfortunately this is about non-soldier retal thread hehe

the new rings shown are luckily farmable, but they will/can be a royal pain in the neck, because even tho they have higher drop chance than Alkamos ring, you have that "tiny" detail of Sethris having to not only drop them, but spawn in a pool of 7 magi lol -gg Crate, wp. Might be why most of the new magi rings are so awesome, not exactly something you just walse in and grab in a handful of runs (well, unless RNGesus loves you i guess heh )
But Gargoyle Belt can actually work pretty well too if lacking a "poweful" belt https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/12191 decent stats, even before bonus affixes, not too hard to farm. Then ofc we have the wonderful and super easy to grab Creeping Rings https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/11726 which takes no time to get, such that slight farming for better affixes is actually not out of the world.
Hell if really lacking there is even Dreeg Sect legs, which despite otherwise mediocre stats at least swings a nice 1500 armor. So there is plenty to work with, even for a non bis or non legendary approach since even tho Perdition takes up up 5 slots, it leaves just about the right ones out to mess around with -heck Vilescorn can also be tossed in even tho it has no set bonuses

But i really think devotion swaps are the big one. A few changes has the potential to massively increase dmg output. Think i did mention i used to have ghoul on one, then i decided to try messenger of war and scales instead. But befor that i had a massive variation of super defensive devotions, and then tried stuff i thought was increasing my dmg (wasn't lol). Because for defensive setup there are also a bunch of different to take. But dmg can really swing up (or down ofc) with just a "few" devotion points changes
But i really don't think you should think anything bad of 170k dmg or 75% RR despite you feel you are overpursing elements, that can be "good" to try and reach places(like devotion) didn't initially think of or imagine possible, -even if you feel your defenses are missing some places as a result "so far". If you fiddle enough i'm sure you can find the right amount of Resist overcaps, DA (and/or armor) and maybe circuit breakers to keep you alive, while probably still maintaining ost of your current dmg

The 200k+ Warlord i'm trying to fudge with doesn't really work (yet, hopefully) lol, because while the dmg is there, the armor, the OA and "technically" the DA is fine, my problem is fitting in the resist, not even talking about proper overcaps but just managing to get capped on a few heh.
But i know if i keep fiddling i will get there, somehow lol. 100% sure it's the same for you. and a really good place to start, besides devotions ofc, is components and augments. It's crazy what you can make possible if you get the right bright idea to swap or fill in different components and augments

I was doing some crazy silly 75OA augment, because i really "needed" it, then i realises, there was a 75OA augment with Aether resist, resist i didn't really need as was overcapped already, but then that made me think to change other out, and then somehow i ended up with the possibility of actually using the freakin retaliation augement on rings lol.... In the end i didn't pick it for the (so far) final approach, as i'm a little OA hungry(probably don't need to be) but the fact that i could somehow manage to replace around enough, to be able to use 2 pure dmg ring augemnts that i had initially thought 100% out of the question was a fantastic discovery.
Having the full list of armor augments on display on screen or something while fiddling with augments+components in game or in grimtools can really be helpful to "suddenly" spot that something that might change the game up a little bit/"just right", definitely something i'm gonna keep doing now when/if i'm going to theorycraft a build i get semi serious/curious about heh. Such a an amazing eye opener of how little could somehow end up changing such big stuff around

...i'm rambling at this point lol

[Paij]

I know someone made a paladin relatiation build, and it is the strongest build in game.
It has the highest damage and it is unkillable