ABB

[Takeda]

So I joined the "Give Crate Some Feedback" with my complaint about ABB (Amarasta's Blade Burst) and how I simply never want to use it.

My understanding from questions I asked here (but probably like a year ago) was that this was a cast - took no advantage from attack speed - and sits as a hole in the pool of proccable WPS' interfering with their efficiency in the same way that Cadence does.

Norzan in the forums was kind of enough to correct me, but I'm loathe to turn Crate's feedback zone into a Q&A about the multitude of stuff I don't know.

So .. how does ABB benefit from attack speed? If I swap out Belgothian Strikes for ABB fully maxed (sacrificed Pneumatic and Shadow Strike points to test this) the DPS is a disaster .. it's not even half as effective.

I have recently converted to the concept of possibly having Cadence on an alt key to proc its skill 3 affect and enjoy those benefits on Belgothian Strikes .. and can see an argument for doing the same with ABB - same concept .. but Cadence works as an attack form whereas ABB is like Bone Harvest - you can use it but you probably shouldn't (and in use Bone Harvest isn't terrible, whereas ABB is).

[Halcyon]

As to the attack speed question, I have no idea. I also thought it didn't benefit from attack speed, since it only fires when cooldown is complete regardless of how many strikes you fired off in between.

As to the DPS, how many targets does belgothian's strikes hit (without a WPS proc)? Blade Burst hits every target in its range, therefore multiplying its damage output but distributing it over a wider area. In a boss situation, blade burst is inherently an underperformer compared to strikes, but it does better at clearing trash. Also, blade burst is a level 1 skill, strikes requires a complete max level set to access. Comparing the two is kind of unfair in that regard. When WPS are in the equation, I belive Strikes had BETTER be better than blade burst, given the difficulty we went through to reach it.

Also, blade burst benefits acid and cold builds, where strikes does not. I've got a 60ish acid dervish that uses blade burst and it's unstoppable. I can one shot entire mobs and dps down bosses in three or four shots of blade burst.

[Takeda]

Originally posted by Halcyon:

As to the attack speed question, I have no idea. I also thought it didn't benefit from attack speed, since it only fires when cooldown is complete regardless of how many strikes you fired off in between.

As to the DPS, how many targets does belgothian's strikes hit (without a WPS proc)? Blade Burst hits every target in its range, therefore multiplying its damage output but distributing it over a wider area. In a boss situation, blade burst is inherently an underperformer compared to strikes, but it does better at clearing trash. Also, blade burst is a level 1 skill, strikes requires a complete max level set to access. Comparing the two is kind of unfair in that regard. When WPS are in the equation, I belive Strikes had BETTER be better than blade burst, given the difficulty we went through to reach it.

Also, blade burst benefits acid and cold builds, where strikes does not. I've got a 60ish acid dervish that uses blade burst and it's unstoppable. I can one shot entire mobs and dps down bosses in three or four shots of blade burst.

Yeah bit mystified by the attack speed thing and unsure how to test it really.

I take your point about ABB vs Belgothian .. but then how would you feel to compare Cadence or Savagery to Belgothian? In regard of "my class attack skill vs set based attack skill" I think it is fair to make the comparison.

I'm intrigued that ABB works for your Dervish, but as I intimated initially, I'd totally consider it as a source of buff so I'm not surprised it can be powerful if built to correctly .. with my cold NB I'm using Beronath's Shard, with a Dervish I'd assume using the Oathkeeper's Righteous Fervour and transmuter, and have a character growing towards that at the moment.

I'm guessing gear wise you have pretty much something of everything and a wealth of info to underpin some of the more exotic builds you look to make. Assuming a more impoverished approach is it fair to say most of normal folks are justified in thinking ABB is a bit awful? Just at maybe an ABB vs Beronath's Shard level?

[powbam]

No matter whether it benefits from Attack or Cast speed my opinion is any such affect is going to be hardly noticeable in the grand scheme of things.. maybe I'm wrong. Dunno.

ABB, however, is MEANT to be used with your dual-wield WPS up top. Look closely at ABB's modifier, Lethal Assault - this is the "money shot" of the skill (see that "4 second duration"?) as Lethal Assault is BUFFING your weapon proc skills (any attack skills actually) as long as it remains active.

[Halcyon]

Point taken about the exotic builds, I sometimes get caught up in possibilities and forget reality ^^;

Hmm, with budget items I think abb could only really be considered viable compared to savagery or cadence if you get a ugdenbog bilelauncher with decent affixes (like my dervish) or a different good 2 handed weapon with a big acid/cold buff. Dual wield abb is weaker because it only uses offhand weapon and s&b I've never tried but would have the same problem I think.

As a nightblade using beronath, I think you'll find that stronger because it includes wps values.

Edit: there are many secondary benefits though, such as not needing to stack attack speed and having a higher OA buff

[powbam]

Originally posted by Halcyon:

Dual wield abb is weaker because it only uses offhand weapon

Get the most out of it and make sure your best weapon (to take advantage of it's bonuses when it goes off) is in the offhand

[Takeda]

Originally posted by powbam:

No matter whether it benefits from Attack or Cast speed my opinion is any such affect is going to be hardly noticeable in the grand scheme of things.. maybe I'm wrong. Dunno.

ABB, however, is MEANT to be used with your dual-wield WPS up top. Look closely at ABB's modifier, Lethal Assault - this is the "money shot" of the skill (see that "4 second duration"?) as Lethal Assault is BUFFING your weapon proc skills (any attack skills actually) as long as it remains active.

I take your point on real world affects - irrespective of how Cadence performs on paper, using it is effective and powerful and any perceived shortcomings in terms of dropped WPS just doesn't seem relevant.

I think after both yours and Halcyon's posts I will go back to looking at ABB and how to benefit from it. I have a 100 NB/Arcanist and I've respecc'd a little to now use ABB - but that's my experience of GD - I won't do spreadsheets so I have to ask questions and prod stuff and see what happens.

I still feel we need a vitality auto attack replacer (which is kinda where all this came from) but I'm more inclined to that thought from the perspective of diversity .. the more options we have the less we're funnelled towards metas. Although I might just be a hopeless altaholic angling for another way to get a fix :)

Thanks both for feeding the "I ask I learn" thing - your time is greatly appreciated.

[powbam]

Originally posted by Takeda:

Thanks both for feeding the "I ask I learn" thing - your time is greatly appreciated.

NP.

For me I tend not to try to compare ABB to Cadence too much. There are ways that they are kinda similar but then there are ways they are very different. Cadence is nice in that it can "work" for all kinds of builds - it's just a very expensive tree. ABB isn't really a Default Attack Replacer like Cadence and it's better suited to specific builds but it is considerably cheaper in comparison and you have access to the full skill earlier.

Sometimes I want to make a Cadence build, other times ABB. Depends on my mood. Hell there have been times I've wanted to make them both work together and try to take advantage of both Lethal Assault AND Deadly Momentum buffs. Need to commit to that one of these days for the f*** of it.

[anachoret]

The Game Guide (or better yet in-game) should have a section on what counts as an Attack and what counts as a Cast, but doesn't as far as I know.

https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/attack-speed-vs-cast-speed/89993/2

[Halcyon]

I think the problem is less 'which is it' and is more 'does it actually increase its efficacy' I think ABB animates faster with faster attack speed, but since the limiting factor on its rate of fire is a cooldown, attack speed is relatively unimportant for its use.

[Takeda]

Originally posted by anachoret:

The Game Guide (or better yet in-game) should have a section on what counts as an Attack and what counts as a Cast, but doesn't as far as I know.

https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/attack-speed-vs-cast-speed/89993/2

Great link and many thanks but this then raises the question of how ABB scales with attack speed. 1.8 sec cooldown irrespective of AS gear .. so what changes? The actual animation speed of it going off? Is that a thing?

[Takeda]

Originally posted by Halcyon:

I think the problem is less 'which is it' and is more 'does it actually increase its efficacy' I think ABB animates faster with faster attack speed, but since the limiting factor on its rate of fire is a cooldown, attack speed is relatively unimportant for its use.

Ah slightly quicker to the punch than me there :D

I was actually unequipping items to see if it made any difference. Yeah if ABB "improves" because it's animation completes more quickly that's entirely irrelevant.

[powbam]

Originally posted by Takeda:

Yeah if ABB "improves" because it's animation completes more quickly that's entirely irrelevant.

Pretty much my thinking on it. Sure, if it's getting "some" benefit - cool. In the grand scheme it's not something you're likely to ever be able to notice and as such is largely inconsequential and something you don't really need to worry about.

[anachoret]

'Which is it' is kind of important, especially if you've always been led to believe it was the wrong one.

[powbam]

Originally posted by anachoret:

'Which is it' is kind of important, especially if you've always been led to believe it was the wrong one.

Mmm, I guess? For me personally, the fact that it was cooldown-based pretty much made it a moot point plus it isn't like it fires off super-slow or anything like that.

[Takeda]

Originally posted by anachoret:

'Which is it' is kind of important, especially if you've always been led to believe it was the wrong one.

Yeah that's true - but as powbam is intimating you then make an informed decision on how that actually impacts your character performance.

I've also noticed (thanks to this debate) that the calculator tooltip shows the cooldown as 1.8 seconds no matter what skill level it is. But I'm an Arcanist too with Star Pact offering a 12% skill cooldown reduction - I should be seeing ABB with a 1.7 second cooldown surely or is this yet another thing I need explaining?