Gambling stats to your weapons is an awful mechanic :: Nordic Ashes General Discussions

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öpö

Jan 22, 2023 @ 7:05am

Gambling stats to your weapons is an awful mechanic

I'm just going to copy paste my feedback comment.

When is the awful stat gambling going to be replaced/redesigned/changed?

I just had to use 22 points to get the right legendary stats to the hammer during a challenge run. And this was just one of the many runs where the gambling system completely ruined the run and wasted my time. But this was the first time I had to waste 22 points! That's absolutely ridiculous.

It's the most frustrating, unrewarding, tedious and unfair mechanic in the game. It requires zero skill, forces hc players to reset runs unfairly at different times of the run and balancing wise sucks. Imagine getting useless stat multiple times in a row with a weapon which doesn't need it?

You already copy a lot of designs, features and mechanics from other games in the genre, but decided to put your own twist to it by adding gambling to the game? Can't you realize there's a reason why more successful, interesting and most of all FUN games in the genre don't have that mechanic implemented? Sure, there are random elements with what weapons you get from leveling up/chests, what weapon modifiers you get etc. but those games also have rerolling, skipping and banishing to help you out at the late hardcore runs. And most of all, those are nowhere near as bad as trying to gamble stats to your weapons in the game.

Nobody likes this feature. Do a poll with your next update to see what the community thinks of this if you can't see how bad it is.

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Showing 1-15 of 15 comments

Breed

Jan 22, 2023 @ 7:18am

I like it and my name is not Nobody.
Your weapon dont need the perfekt stats at all you can easy beat the whole game without the perfekt rolls

Ce'Nedro

Jan 22, 2023 @ 8:10am

I simply ignore that mechanic and take whatever stats they offer. This way I always have a slightly different experience- sometimes I'm extremely overpowered and sometimes I struggle a little bit more. But since this game is not too difficult I pretty much always succeed.👍

Last edited by Ce'Nedro; Jan 22, 2023 @ 8:13am

ellatviano has Nordic Ashes

Jan 22, 2023 @ 8:51am

Originally posted by öpö:
Nobody likes this feature.

I am not a nobody, but I am everyone. And everyone actually loves it :)

Eternity

Jan 22, 2023 @ 9:04am

Sure, the reroll system can be frustrating if you sit there trying to roll the exact stat you want on every single level of the weapon when there's absolutely no reason to actually do that. That, in no way, makes the system bad.

The problem with rage posts like this is that you haven't given a single piece of constructive criticism, or any sort of suggestion to "improve" the feature that you dislike. Your entire rant boils down to "I don't like this! Imagine not liking this because this specific situation! Other games don't do it so it's bad! Surely nobody likes it!" Imagine someone telling you that about your work. Your response is going to be, "Uh, sure, noted." and then moving on because it's useless commentary that doesn't help in any way.

You know the solution to a mechanic you don't like that you don't have to use? Don't use it. The game absolutely does not force you to in any way, and self-imposed challenges are not part of the game, that's all on you, so that comes with its own difficulties. Even if you are using it because you're trying to force an exact run, 22 tries is an obvious outlier, and probably an exaggeration. The most I've ever had to roll was like...8 times? And on average I get what I'm looking for in 1-3 rolls.

Also...you're talking about adding gambling to a game in a genre that is literally RNG driven by definition. The whole concept of roguelite gameplay is that runs are random. RNG = Gambling.

öpö

Jan 22, 2023 @ 1:49pm

Originally posted by Breed:
I like it and my name is not Nobody.
Your weapon dont need the perfekt stats at all you can easy beat the whole game without the perfekt rolls

Originally posted by Eternity:
You know the solution to a mechanic you don't like that you don't have to use? Don't use it. The game absolutely does not force you to in any way, and self-imposed challenges are not part of the game, that's all on you, so that comes with its own difficulties. Even if you are using it because you're trying to force an exact run, 22 tries is an obvious outlier, and probably an exaggeration. The most I've ever had to roll was like...8 times? And on average I get what I'm looking for in 1-3 rolls.

Your weapons do need to hit the crucial stats in order to succeed in challenge runs eg. hardest difficulty + zero permanent upgrades and same but with no evolutions and/or shop. And the game does indeed force you to use it, because there's always a chance for rolling absolutely horribly stats for a certain weapon => you don't scale accordingly to the later stages of the game.

There's literally stats in some weapons which double, triple or even quadruple your dps, yet you're simple minded enough to say they don't matter?

Would you be satisfied if your hammer would only get distance and area at the most important epic and legendary level ups? Fire orbs got mostly area and speed, but no projectiles or damage? Oh yeah what about ice projectile? Sure it can go through enemies, but it then doesn't manage to put in the dps you need to kill elites, eg. the ones which heal other enemies around it. Wow, I got AREA to my extremely small and narrow piercing arrow, when no matter how big you can get it, it will never hit multiple enemies sideways because of its base design. You managed to get it very huge with chests' help, ok, then you don't have enough damage stats to make it work. Ofc you wouldn't be satisfied with any of these.

I wish I was kidding about rolling 22 times. The funniest part is that I wouldn't even be that mad about it if it didn't happen. But alas because the gambling feature is in the game, it can always happen. That's why it's gambling. Since you're so skillfully good at it, why not go and gamble all your savings? I wouldn't have the courage to do it, because it seems I'm not skilled enough to press a button and getting what I need.

Originally posted by Eternity:
The problem with rage posts like this is that you haven't given a single piece of constructive criticism, or any sort of suggestion to "improve" the feature that you dislike. Your entire rant boils down to "I don't like this! Imagine not liking this because this specific situation! Other games don't do it so it's bad! Surely nobody likes it!" Imagine someone telling you that about your work. Your response is going to be, "Uh, sure, noted." and then moving on because it's useless commentary that doesn't help in any way.

No, I have written multiple better options to stat gambling in my review of the game. You're just as bad of a bigot poster as I seem to be in your opinion since you think so linearly, especially when suggesting not using a feature which is unfortunately extremely crucial to the game's design? I'll copy paste the suggestions I've written because I doubt you'll be able to find them by yourself.

What makes the game feel disgusting and frustrating to play though is that the optimal builds revolve around boring stat gambling. That's right, in the end the game is all about gambling which of course is objectively a horrible concept and bad design choice in these type of games. It's not about using your knowledge and creativity to create the optimal build or adapting your playstyle to what weapons you get, it's about how "skillfully" you gambled stats into your weapons, lol. What a joke.

If the devs want the players to actually design their own builds and the game to be on par with Return to Abyss' or Spellbook Demonslayers' build creativity/variety, they need to
- remove the character weapon pool limitations
- redesign the characters' unique features to be about refining specific playstyles and ability usages instead of being about what weapon pool to use
- give the players ability to combine different skill trees with each other, enabling actual build creativity
- remove stat gambling and replace it weapon modifiers like in Return to Abyss
Don't be afraid to do some research, borrow ideas from other games and improve on them to make your game much better. You're already doing that but in a mediocre way.

"Just don't use it" and "you just rage and write useless commentary", yet your own walls of texts are much emptier than anything I've ever said. Hey Eternity, instead of just saying "don't use it", why not put in some effort like I just did with this post and explain to me why this game's stat gambling is not needed, yet completely acceptable feature as it is in the game atm? Can you muster enough hypocrite words to defend this feature, which isn't apparently needed?

All of you who defend this gambling mechanic and say "don't use it" have no idea how bad of a game design it is when applied too much. You also don't understand the need for right stats in hardcore late game challenge runs. When you're doing the same runs as I am, I'm excited to hear how your "I ignored stat rolling" went.

Originally posted by Eternity:
Also...you're talking about adding gambling to a game in a genre that is literally RNG driven by definition. The whole concept of roguelite gameplay is that runs are random. RNG = Gambling.

In the most successful and fun games in the genre, It indeed does to a manageable degree where you adapt your playstyle based on what you get. This is what makes roguelites fun and different with each run. In Vampire Survivors or Return to Abyss depending on your permanent upgrades or rules you might not get the weapons, passive items, trinkets, modifiers etc. you want. But you will always get something else build or playstyle wise which can be as powerful as the one you wanted, if you know how to adapt and are willing to do so.

However in this game's case where characters are very specific and linear ready-made builds, your adaptability is all based on pure 100% rng item drops in long intervals and stat rolling. Not weapon, passives, modifier or feature rolls, only stat rolls. This means that with wrong stats, your weapons always have a chance to scale horribly based on how many change-able stats the weapon has. Tarot cards have 3 stats and all of them are valid because the weapons itself is powerful. No wonder you don't need rerolls! Then you have some weapons which have 5 change-able stats, the chances to hit the correct ones and wishing epic levels on them is much lower. It's like the RNG features are designed badly in this game, because the builds are linear and within them the variables are mostly about stat rolling. I wish this game had the essential fun roguelite RNG features like in the other, better games in the genre.

Last edited by öpö; Jan 22, 2023 @ 2:13pm

Farseer

Jan 23, 2023 @ 10:32pm

100% agreed , reroll stat into excat same u didnt want is most frustrating moments in the game, atleast both stats should reroll 100% of the time.

Evan

Jan 25, 2023 @ 8:40am

I think it's fine, but we'l need to get those free reroll talents (there's a lot of free rerolls from that one) and you don't want to be greedy with them. Be practical with the usage. Right now i just want more seeds to get some QoL talents.
I do few rerolls at 7-8 (if needed) and for 9 and 10 i usually aim for useful stats.

Last edited by Evan; Jan 25, 2023 @ 8:42am

SonOfAbaddon has Nordic Ashes

Jan 26, 2023 @ 1:59am

Originally posted by Farseer:
100% agreed , reroll stat into excat same u didnt want is most frustrating moments in the game, atleast both stats should reroll 100% of the time.

I don't Agree. Most of the times I have one stat right but the second is not the desired one. With your method it will take two rerolls to maybe get it right.

My last 2 skill points are mostly with two desired stats, not just one. But in general: yes, rerolling one single skill 5-8 times to get it right can be frustrating and even ruin a run. If your life tree isn't that upgraded you will be punished HARD with those missing levels.

My Little Omi Jan 28, 2023 @ 12:11am

This mechanic is surely horrible and has no redeeming qualities. As a beginner, I did 3 runs with the first character. All 3 runs, I put all my points into the first sword upgrade. In the first run, I had a giant ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sworid hitting 1/3 of the screen, killing everything in a couple of swings. In the second run I had a tiny puny piece of crap that was swinging 8 times in a row for little damage. I couldn't kill any elites without taking at least some damage. And after 10 minutes when the waves became bigger, it was absolutely impossible to progress. The third run was exactly like the second, except I wasnt swinging 8 times but 4, damage was higher, but still pointless since area and attack speed were abysmal.

So I did the same thing, got absolutly uncomparable results. This is not how you do replayability and randomness. Absolutely not. How to improve it? Remove it completely, make the upgrades fixed. Or make them pre-determined and allow to choose which one do you want to focus on (Like, AOE vs cooldown vs damage, for example).

That's just plain unpleasant. Hour of my life was completely wasted because of this mechanic.

jpVari

Jan 28, 2023 @ 2:15am

It's a rogue like.... that's kind of how they go. if you consider an unsuccesful, non-maxed-power run to be a "complete waste", idk why you'd play them.

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