Why are there no good Dex-based classes?

[Doug]

I just bought Tabaxi and I'm farming my 3 past lives to get Racial Completionist back. I ran my first two lives as Sacred Fist Paladins (first handwraps, second staff). Tabaxi's Charisma bonuses and melee enhancements fit nicely with those. It's not ideal, of course, because Tabaxi BEGS for a Dex-based build.. but I can't find one.

I'm trying to plan my third Tabaxi life and frankly, there are no good choices that take advantage of both the Tabaxi stats (Dex/Cha) and their Enhancements (mostly melee-focused, though some work for ranged as well). With 15 Racial AP, I literally can't find a build where I can bother to spend more than about 8 AP in the Tabaxi tree.

That's specific to why I encountered the issue, but...
Consider the traditionally Dex-based classes:

Dex-based Monk: Wis is better if you have the Falconry Tree. Lets you use the same stat for to-hit, dmg, DCs, etc.

Dex-based Ranger: What's the advantage? You get all the TWF Feats regardless of whether or not you qualify and if you go archer, you can just as readily use any other stat. In fact, others are better, because base Ranger doesn't get Dex to dmg with bows.. only to-hit. (And afaik there's no Universal Enhancement Tree that gives Dex for to-hit and dmg.)

Bard is definitely better Cha-based than Dex-based if you have the Feydark Illusionist tree, so your spells and combat use the same stat.

Arti and Rogue are definitely better Int-based if you have the Harper Agent tree: more skill points AND most trapping abilities are Int-based.

There is no longer a class in DDO that's best using Dex as its primary stat. The only reason to go that route is for TWF, and with adequate tomes, you probably can hit the requirements with no more than a point or two above the base 8 Dex.

Can YOU think of a build that is best Dex-based? Or at least one that takes full advantage of that stat?

[drunken.dx]

Originally posted by Doug:

Dex-based Ranger: What's the advantage? You get all the TWF Feats regardless of whether or not you qualify and if you go archer, you can just as readily use any other stat. In fact, others are better, because base Ranger doesn't get Dex to dmg with bows.. only to-hit. (And afaik there's no Universal Enhancement Tree that gives Dex for to-hit and dmg.)

Errm...

Bows have dex to dmg as default...
My ranger gets GG bonus to dmg from her high dex stat

although currently there is a bug in game where most of bows use str instead of dex if you have bow strenght feat, bow users are NOT happy

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/537304-Bow-Damage-went-down-with-U58-Bow-now-uses-Str-as-Damage-mod-regardless-of-Dex

If you wanna dex build, bow ranger is way to go, but be prepared that bow ranger only gets AOE attacks from IPS.

[AbsynthMinded]

Bow builds are niche at best. Of your options listed I'd lean into a 2WF Rogue Assassin or a Thief Acrobat with Staves perhaps. I would have to double check, but as I recall with my big Assassin I was initially building as Str Based, but discovered along the line there was an Enhancement somewhere that set it to using Dex To Hit and Dmg on Melee.

[Doug]

Originally posted by drunken.dx:

Originally posted by Doug:

Dex-based Ranger: What's the advantage? You get all the TWF Feats regardless of whether or not you qualify and if you go archer, you can just as readily use any other stat. In fact, others are better, because base Ranger doesn't get Dex to dmg with bows.. only to-hit. (And afaik there's no Universal Enhancement Tree that gives Dex for to-hit and dmg.)

Errm...

Bows have dex to dmg as default...
My ranger gets GG bonus to dmg from her high dex stat

although currently there is a bug in game where most of bows use str instead of dex if you have bow strenght feat, bow users are NOT happy

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/537304-Bow-Damage-went-down-with-U58-Bow-now-uses-Str-as-Damage-mod-regardless-of-Dex

If you wanna dex build, bow ranger is way to go, but be prepared that bow ranger only gets AOE attacks from IPS.

When did that change? Because I haven't run a bow-user in a while, but bows were always Dex to hit and no bonus to damage unless you took the Bow Strength Feat which added Strength to damage. And Crossbows were Dex to hit with NO available damage bonus. I know recently they've added lots of Enhancements to Racial and Class Enhancement trees to add different stats to to-hit and/or dmg, but I'm not aware of a universal change that targeted bows.

Everything I read says you only get Dex to damage with a bow if you have certain enhancements, like:
Deepwood Stalker Tier 2 Enhancement - Improved Weapon Finesse (Bows and Throwing Weapons only)
Elf and Morninglord Tier 4 enhancement - Grace (longbows or shortbows only)

I note that the thread in the forums you mention, the OP is talking about their DWS (Deepwood Stalker).

If I'm right, then that gives me ONE option for a Dex build: a Ranger bow-user with a half-dozen AP invested into DWS tree. (Since I'm building for a Tabaxi past life, the Elf/Morninglord option is off the table.) Better than nothing, I guess, but a rather underwhelming list of options.

[Doug]

Originally posted by AbsynthMinded:

Bow builds are niche at best. Of your options listed I'd lean into a 2WF Rogue Assassin or a Thief Acrobat with Staves perhaps. I would have to double check, but as I recall with my big Assassin I was initially building as Str Based, but discovered along the line there was an Enhancement somewhere that set it to using Dex To Hit and Dmg on Melee.

Yes, you CAN make a Rogue Dex-based.. if you want to suck at traps. And since Int-based is every bit as good at everything else AND can get traps, it rather feels like deliberately handicapping your toon.

[Doug]

Thing is, Tabaxi Racial Tree itself will let me use Dex for to-hit and damage for a list of weapons (Dagger, Handaxe, Handwraps, Kama, Kukri, Light Hammer, Light Mace, Light Pick, Rapier, Short Sword, Sickle, or while Unarmed or in a Druid animal form).

But for every build possibility I consider, there's another stat that's a better option because of other class abilities based on that stat.

I could build a Dex-based melee Druid and accept that I can't effectively cast anything with a DC.. or I can build a Wis-based melee Druid with a few points invested in Falconry and do both.

It really seems the only viable Dex build is a Ranger. Dex is no better than other options, but at least it's not actively worse.

[Panic Fire]

Originally posted by Doug:

Thing is, Tabaxi Racial Tree itself will let me use Dex for to-hit and damage for a list of weapons (Dagger, Handaxe, Handwraps, Kama, Kukri, Light Hammer, Light Mace, Light Pick, Rapier, Short Sword, Sickle, or while Unarmed or in a Druid animal form).

But for every build possibility I consider, there's another stat that's a better option because of other class abilities based on that stat.

I could build a Dex-based melee Druid and accept that I can't effectively cast anything with a DC.. or I can build a Wis-based melee Druid with a few points invested in Falconry and do both.

It really seems the only viable Dex build is a Ranger. Dex is no better than other options, but at least it's not actively worse.

Um with the way stats work in ddo you can make any build really. Your going to be able to +X to at least three of your stats reletively easily which for most will be con, to hit stat and to dmg stat, and spell dc stat.

You can easily do more +x to stat gear than that and its not really an issue. If you want to stack dex you can easily do so with any build and just put on a +x stat for your casting stat if applicable.


Tabaxi lets you run Dex with any class so there isn't any special class to get with them. Just use one of the weapons listed with your class and you are good to go.

[Doug]

Originally posted by drunken.dx:

Errm...

Bows have dex to dmg as default...
My ranger gets GG bonus to dmg from her high dex stat

My bad. Apparently it changed in Update 49 and I somehow overlooked it. And DDOWiki is out of date on it as well. I checked in-game and the Enhancements I mentioned have been modified.

[Doug]

Originally posted by Panic Fire:

Originally posted by Doug:

Thing is, Tabaxi Racial Tree itself will let me use Dex for to-hit and damage for a list of weapons (Dagger, Handaxe, Handwraps, Kama, Kukri, Light Hammer, Light Mace, Light Pick, Rapier, Short Sword, Sickle, or while Unarmed or in a Druid animal form).

But for every build possibility I consider, there's another stat that's a better option because of other class abilities based on that stat.

I could build a Dex-based melee Druid and accept that I can't effectively cast anything with a DC.. or I can build a Wis-based melee Druid with a few points invested in Falconry and do both.

It really seems the only viable Dex build is a Ranger. Dex is no better than other options, but at least it's not actively worse.

Um with the way stats work in ddo you can make any build really. Your going to be able to +X to at least three of your stats reletively easily which for most will be con, to hit stat and to dmg stat, and spell dc stat.

You can easily do more +x to stat gear than that and its not really an issue. If you want to stack dex you can easily do so with any build and just put on a +x stat for your casting stat if applicable.


Tabaxi lets you run Dex with any class so there isn't any special class to get with them. Just use one of the weapons listed with your class and you are good to go.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. Sure, I can run a toon that tries to balance two stats and be crappy at everything. As it is, you always want Con gear and your primary stat gear. If you have two primary stats, you start running into gear slot issues. And that ignores the fact that you only get levelups into one stat.

These days, it's possible to make almost any kind of build a one-stat build:
Int Rogues
Wis Druids
Cha Bards
Wis Monks
Str Barbarians
.. and have almost all useful abilities (spells, melee, DCs, etc) use that one stat.

Dex seems to be the oddball. All the Dex builds are one-trick ponies.
Dex Rogues are weak on traps
Dex Druids & Bards have crap DCs on their spells
Dex Monks have crap DCs on their special attacks and finishing moves

But since I somehow missed the change to Bows in Update 49 that gave them Dex to damage, I guess the exception is Ranger.. specifically Ranger archer. Ranger spells have no DCs and only Arcane Archer has attacks that use Wis for a DC (for some unknown reason). So there's little competition for stats, since it's inherently a one-trick pony.

[Karagek]

Rangers Tempest tree does allow dex to hit/damage with light melee weapons and treats the scimitar as such, wisdom helps arcane archer but the rest of ranger benefits more out of dex. Horizon Walker gets the dexterity trance, and works best with ranger, actually not sure if the imbue dice changes makes arcane archer beat horizon walker now, (favored enemy stacks on itself so certain targets you can benefit from 3 instances of it adding a flat 30-50 damage before ranged power/crits)

I do agree that every other class benefits more from other stats, focusing dex doesn't add enough ac to matter late game where only a dedicated tank can actually hit the ac requirements to see miss show up reliably...

[Doug]

Originally posted by Karagek:

I do agree that every other class benefits more from other stats, focusing dex doesn't add enough ac to matter late game where only a dedicated tank can actually hit the ac requirements to see miss show up reliably...

Well sure, but.. when they made the AC change some years back to make it a diminishing returns thing instead of the d20 rules, AC became much more generally relevant. Used to be that you could either make a tank that got hit only on a 20.. or there was no point investing in AC whatsoever because they'd hit you on everything but a 1.

At least now there's some value to any amount of AC, so it's worth consideration. My L20 Paladin at 130 AC is hit about 3/4 of the time at level. OTOH, someone with a 60 AC would probably be hit half the time or so. The additional investment pays off.. but the initial investment is still worth making.

[drunken.dx]

Originally posted by Doug:

Originally posted by drunken.dx:

Errm...

Bows have dex to dmg as default...
My ranger gets GG bonus to dmg from her high dex stat

My bad. Apparently it changed in Update 49 and I somehow overlooked it. And DDOWiki is out of date on it as well. I checked in-game and the Enhancements I mentioned have been modified.

no worries, it's easy to miss updates for builds you aren't using.

[Palumtra]

Assasin Rogue and Tempest Ranger can be both really good if you go full DEX. You can still trap if you rack up some past lives , get tomes (from sagas) and carry gear with you, but other then these 2, yeah...get the Haper/Falconry....

[Myriad]

Strange to see Doug asking a question about ddo. My guess is that Dex is already op. If you focus on it you have nice bonuses to AC and Dodge, among many other skills.

[Doug]

Originally posted by Myriad:

Strange to see Doug asking a question about ddo. My guess is that Dex is already op. If you focus on it you have nice bonuses to AC and Dodge, among many other skills.

The question was basically to the tune of: Do you see something that I don't. And someone, in fact, did. I had missed the change that added Dex to damage for bows.

But... Dex doesn't give you any Dodge. The only way in which Dex and Dodge are related is that your Dex bonus to AC and your Dodge cap are both limited by the Max Dex Bonus on your armor or shield.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Dodge_bonus

Dex is far from OP. AC and Reflex saves are the main beneficiaries of Dex. Those and some Skills (Balance, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, & Tumble).

[Doug]

Well, FWIW, I think I'll make a Dex-based Ranger archer and see how bows are doing these days. Should be fun with three trees to pick among (DWS, AA, and Horizon Walker). Hopefully there's enough value in the Tabaxi tree for such a build to spend my 15 Racial AP there. Should be an interesting change of pace after a handwraps life and then a staff life.