Dragon's Dogma 2

Dragon's Dogma 2

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FallenSnowie Mar 7, 2024 @ 5:50pm
Denuvo and possibly no offline mode even if it will be a singleplayer...
Should I be worried about Denuvo and the internet connection requirements? Want to play this game but these are some major red flags Capcom. Plan on adding battle passes and other useless things?...
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Showing 196-210 of 239 comments
Razzle Mar 10, 2024 @ 12:41am 
Originally posted by FallenSnowie:
Should I be worried about Denuvo and the internet connection requirements? Want to play this game but these are some major red flags Capcom. Plan on adding battle passes and other useless things?...
Denuvo allows you to play games offline
you just have to launch it online first time
Dailao Mar 10, 2024 @ 1:45am 
Originally posted by FallenSnowie:
Denuvo and possibly no offline mode even if it will be a singleplayer...

If these are critical issues for you then your gaming future looks pretty grim I'm afraid.
LongTimeNoSiege Mar 10, 2024 @ 3:02am 
Originally posted by Dailao:
Originally posted by FallenSnowie:
Denuvo and possibly no offline mode even if it will be a singleplayer...

If these are critical issues for you then your gaming future looks pretty grim I'm afraid.
Yeah, the industry really is going to ♥♥♥♥. Good thing there's a crash incoming.
lukaself Mar 10, 2024 @ 7:10pm 
Originally posted by Dailao:
Originally posted by FallenSnowie:
Denuvo and possibly no offline mode even if it will be a singleplayer...

If these are critical issues for you then your gaming future looks pretty grim I'm afraid.
I don't know, it seems there's no end of good DRM-free titles with none of the usual shenanigans of the quantuple A industry. I'd say about a quarter of Steam's best sellers are either indie or DRM-free critical successes.

The best part being that they seem to sell just as good or better than any game with Denuvo... Palworld is currently breaking every sales record on Steam and is completely DRM-free. Last year's best selling title Baldur's Gate 3 was DRM-free, 2022 was the year of Elden Ring - no Denuvo there, 2021's most popular title Valheim was DRM-free, 2020 best selling title Hades was DRM-free, as well as Slay the Spire in 2019, Rimworld in 2018, Hollow Knight in 2017, Stardew Valley in 2016, The Witcher 3 in 2015... not a single game with Denuvo ever held that honour in 11 years of existence.

The current best seller on Steam is Supermarket Simulator, of all things... I love how the video game market got unpredictable due to people finally getting fed up of being sold the same recycled ideas over and over and I just love how that seems to drive the big corporations' analysts crazy... :happyotus:
Last edited by lukaself; Mar 10, 2024 @ 7:14pm
Kaldaien Mar 11, 2024 @ 5:28am 
Originally posted by LongTimeNoSiege:
Originally posted by Kaldaien:
Denuvo doesn't require anything like that. Your license expires every 2 weeks though, so immediately following a patch downloaded by Steam, or after the 2 weeks is up. You will have to re-connect to activate. Then it's another 2 weeks.

Special K can tell you the age of your activation, so that you can push it out another 2 weeks if you intend to go offline. There's no check-up beyond the expiration of that activation, which is completely predictable.
Or in other words, it requires online activation.
Exactly, it doesn't check-in. It will renew activation, but that has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that the activation expired.
Kaldaien Mar 11, 2024 @ 5:30am 
Originally posted by LongTimeNoSiege:
Originally posted by Kaldaien:
Digital Foundry disagrees, and so do I. And the number of patches I write for games to improve their performance, if there were actually this magical 25% difference in performance you claim, then BOTH myself and Digital Foundry would have found it.

You should pick more obscure games that nobody here is actually familiar with if you're going to make up statistics :) Ideally not a CAPCOM game, because I've modified so many of them to fix performance issues at this point that I can tell you every single thing that's wrong with all their AAA games since 2018.
Ah yes, Digital Foundry, a totally trustworthy source and not a huge joke that's basically just a branch of a company's marketing department.

Meanwhile, actual benchmarks show a big hit to CPU performance and RAM usage in Denuvo games. But of course, anyone who knows how computers work would know that, because running a program with sophisticated encryption of any kind with zero system overhead is a physical impossibility. You're just here trying to undersell it because you get paid to do so (by your own admission).
Anyone respectable who has ever done a benchmark on Denuvo has found exactly the same results, nothing. You have to ask yourself why the only source of information that agrees with you are benchmarks done by random parties who ONLY exist to compare the performance between Denuvo and non-Denuvo.

If you had a leg to stand on, I would see a performance difference during the development of my performance mods for games, and so would any reputable news outlet who benchmarks games.


Oh yes, I get paid by Denuvo to point out you can circumvent CAPCOM's DLC anti-piracy without first removing Denuvo. They just love it when I do that.
Last edited by Kaldaien; Mar 11, 2024 @ 5:35am
lukaself Mar 11, 2024 @ 5:54am 
1
Originally posted by Kaldaien:
Originally posted by LongTimeNoSiege:
Ah yes, Digital Foundry, a totally trustworthy source and not a huge joke that's basically just a branch of a company's marketing department.

Meanwhile, actual benchmarks show a big hit to CPU performance and RAM usage in Denuvo games. But of course, anyone who knows how computers work would know that, because running a program with sophisticated encryption of any kind with zero system overhead is a physical impossibility. You're just here trying to undersell it because you get paid to do so (by your own admission).
Anyone respectable who has ever done a benchmark on Denuvo has found exactly the same results, nothing.
And yet, Digital Foundry, that you yourself quoted as reputable found a CPU performance impact. Most systems won't ever notice it but the fact remains that it exists when you claim it doesn't.

Denuvo impacts performance, that's a fact but the difference is that some games can afford the hit and some others can't. Durante themselves recognized the hit on loading times, which belongs to performance issues, like it or not. Especially when CAPCOM layers it with multiple other solutions causing no end of issues, as you rightfully noted yourself.
https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2019-devil-may-cry-5-pc-denuvo-protection-tested
Richard Leadbetter later confirmed again that Denuvo has a performance hit in their Arkham Knight video. Their exact words were
The last time we looked at the DRM was during Devil May Cry 5's PC release where for some reason capcom accidentally released executables with Denuvo active and without. By dropping to an obscenely low resolution we could remove graphics from the equation and test CPU performance and there it is! there's a hit. Not a big one, not one that's likely to be noticed at all but it is measurable. Devil May Cry 5 runs well though and what if this hit was applied to a game that, well, doesn't run well? I think you can see where I'm going here.

On the other hand, Amplitude Studios mentioned a noticeable performance impact they couldn't fix for not using Denuvo in Humankind.
https://community.amplitude-studios.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/168-general/threads/41273-the-day-amplitude-broke-my-heart-and-how-they-reassembled-it

Katsuhiro Harada, the producer of Tekken 7 mentioned a performance impact as well which was enough for not using in Tekken 8 and for the giant Bandai Namco corporation as a whole to discontinue using it completely despite being previously Irdeto's biggest customer (that and apparently being unable to secure their own emails, leaking all their communication with Bamco to the public). Denuvo themselves promised him a quick fix which never came, which counts as an admission of guilt.
https://twitter.com/Harada_TEKKEN/status/984835707209375744

That's already too many to ignore and there are many more examples... and that's not even the biggest issue with Denuvo alongside the activation errors, the unreliable servers, the activation limits hampering the Steam Deck and Proton functionality, the company's problematic history... Yourself condemned how it was used in Monster Hunter World so how can you fight CAPCOM's own anti-tamper/anti-debug so hard and say that Denuvo is fine in the same breath?
Originally posted by Kaldaien:
As much as I'm always accused of somehow shilling for Denuvo, this is a very real problem in this game. The anti-tamper is examining the memory for the executable while it is running in order to crash the game if it detects changes. While that is already completely stupid... the rate that they are doing it and the fact that they have spread this across all threads renders your CPU's cache pointless.

I cannot say what impact this has on performance on a low-end CPU, but I can say I do not freaking want any software running on my computer doing this regardless whether it is a tablet or my Ryzen 9 3900x workstation. Those extra cores were not purchased to make my games crash faster.
We should work together and you would have the full support of both our groups combined as leverage to get every piece of interfering middleware out, not only Denuvo, but you insist on pushing everyone away instead of trying to reach half-way for a compromise. That's not constructive.
Last edited by lukaself; Mar 11, 2024 @ 6:29am
Chris Mar 11, 2024 @ 6:30am 
Yes you should and you also shouldnt support capcom and denuvo games in general
Kaldaien Mar 11, 2024 @ 8:54am 
3
Originally posted by Chris:
Yes you should and you also shouldnt support capcom and denuvo games in general
Mostly just CAPCOM. Denuvo's perfectly fine in the hands of any other developer. But it's obfuscating CAPCOM's crash-happy proprietary DRM (not Enigma). Of course their ♥♥♥♥♥♥ proprietary stuff is so well-known at this point that it can often be removed without touching Denuvo.
LongTimeNoSiege Mar 13, 2024 @ 6:45pm 
Originally posted by Kaldaien:
Anyone respectable who has ever done a benchmark on Denuvo has found exactly the same results, nothing. You have to ask yourself why the only source of information that agrees with you are benchmarks done by random parties who ONLY exist to compare the performance between Denuvo and non-Denuvo.

If you had a leg to stand on, I would see a performance difference during the development of my performance mods for games, and so would any reputable news outlet who benchmarks games.


Oh yes, I get paid by Denuvo to point out you can circumvent CAPCOM's DLC anti-piracy without first removing Denuvo. They just love it when I do that.

Yeah except that anyone respectable who does not have a vested financial interest in supporting Denuvo has stated directly that, even if small, Denuvo does increase performance overhead on RAM and CPU when implemented perfectly. You yourself have pointed out issues with Denuvo, then blamed the devs for it - when the fact is, if Denuvo were not in these games, there would be no development time wasted on getting it working, no unsatisfied customers reporting performance issues, and none of the other plethora of factual issues with Denuvo you continue to ignore or handwave away with "doesn't bother me with my $7500 PC!" I don't know why a developer of PERFORMANCE SOFTWARE would not understand why someone would be miffed at paying customers being forced to bear a higher performance overhead for literally not reason. And no, "stopping piracy" isn't a reason even in the rare cases where Denuvo does that, because the claim that DRM increases sales is inherently not falsifiable and thus not a viable argument.

You continue to lament the fact that people call you a Denuvo shill, despite literally, in this very thread, making a fallacious semantic argument in favor of Denuvo. In one of your posts you state Denuvo does not require an online check-in, but in fact only requires [thing literally identical to an online check-in from a normal person's point of view]. You are so far up where the sun doesn't shine that you don't realize that the average consumer doesn't care about the semantics of whether it's an online check-in or a "reactivation." (PROTIP: that's tech speak for "check-in" because they could just make the validation indefinite offline. They coded it!) To them, the bottom line is that the game they paid for is stolen from them unless they pay for an internet connection to play it. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not a Denuvo shill, just completely deluded from dealing with pirates having issues with your software and your intentional lies are just contrarianism rather than grifting, but before I hadn't looked into Special K's development history to get a better idea of where you were coming from I assumed you must be on their payroll since you were actively lying about their software. And before you claim you weren't, your own posts contradicted you multiple times in this thread. Also, no ♥♥♥♥ Denuvo loves you intentionally not bypassing their malware when you remove other malware from games - any developer with integrity would do that, but you intentionally don't. Why would they care about you removing other, unrelated, competing products? You're literally doing their job for them.

It's ironic that you claim I have no leg to stand on when you suddenly got extremely quiet when someone more informed about me showed up with receipts including quotes from your own posts proving that everything you've said in this thread is bull.
The only valid argument you've made is that my exaggerated made-up percentage number was hyperbole. I'll concede you that it's technically not 25% most of the time and you'd have to have a crap CPU for it to be that drastic an effect. But consider this: Dragon's Dogma 2 is an extremely CPU-heavy game targeting 30 FPS. If someone's CPU is a little weak and they lose even just 5 FPS as a result of Denuvo, they have just lost 25% of the game's target performance.

If you can make a single valid argument why a consumer should have Denuvo added to a product they paid $70+ for, I will concede everything I've said and personally mail you a pizza roll. Otherwise, kindly buzz off and stop lying about malware to dupe idiots into advertising for grifters for free.
Last edited by LongTimeNoSiege; Mar 13, 2024 @ 6:49pm
RED-Life Mar 13, 2024 @ 7:04pm 
Originally posted by H-Foundry PIXIV:
:LitBrazier: Anyone know what the pro-Denuvo poster got banned for?
Probably award farming.
Kaldaien Mar 14, 2024 @ 3:19am 
Originally posted by LongTimeNoSiege:
If you can make a single valid argument why a consumer should have Denuvo added to a product they paid $70+ for, I will concede everything I've said and personally mail you a pizza roll. Otherwise, kindly buzz off and stop lying about malware to dupe idiots into advertising for grifters for free.
Sorry, I don't have time to read that giant wall of text. From what I gather in your closing paragraph, you're not capable of having a discussion on this topic that doesn't push some kind of agenda.

I have zero interest in any of that crap. I hate DRM and non-defeatable obstacles like Steam Input that can break your entire game library as much as the next person. However, as a very experienced game modder, I do have interest in correcting misinformation about Denuvo, particularly the blatantly wrong claims you are making about the ability to modify Denuvo games.

    CAPCOM has their own proprietary anti-tamper crap that I have to workaround every time they release a new game, it's unrelated to Denuvo and it's also not Enigma Protector. CAPCOM's own anti-tamper solution is mostly intended to prevent DLC piracy, and Denuvo doesn't prevent removing CAPCOM's anti-tamper, it just obfuscates it. At best, Denuvo indirectly prevents modification of games only because it can take people not familiar with CAPCOM's anti-tamper ♥♥♥♥ longer to reverse engineer. Nothing about Denuvo prevents, nor has it ever, prevented modification.
    Moreover, CAPCOM's proprietary crap is what's wrecking the performance and stability in all of their games. I fixed Resident Evil Village's performance before CAPCOM released that "anti-piracy adjustment" patch, and none of it had anything to do with Denuvo. Again, Denuvo just obfuscated the crap making it a mild nuisance to find and remove.

Tl;Dr: Denuvo is not an obstacle to ANY form of game modification, not memory injection, not asset file repacking, not taking a hex editor and bluntly changing executable code. If we can keep things on topic that would be great, because aside from trying to correct misinformation about game modification and Denuvo, I have no desire to even be here.
Last edited by Kaldaien; Mar 14, 2024 @ 3:23am
lukaself Mar 14, 2024 @ 4:30am 
Originally posted by Kaldaien:
Tl;Dr: Denuvo is not an obstacle to ANY form of game modification, not memory injection, not asset file repacking, not taking a hex editor and bluntly changing executable code. If we can keep things on topic that would be great, because aside from trying to correct misinformation about game modification and Denuvo, I have no desire to even be here.
So you repeatedly stated, without being able to prove it even once. Considering you have demonstrated you can't even tell when a game uses Denuvo or not, forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

Again, no one said anything about asset repacking and memory injection not being possible but that last part about hex-editing the executable is verifiably wrong. Any binaries using Denuvo are encrypted and obfuscated, which will significantly hamper the efforts of anyone not used to work around it. Modders don't typically possess the skillset required - there's only one group who managed to do it so far, and only on a single game. (Source[www.securitynewspaper.com])

The only parts of an executable which are open to hex modification are the strings that the developers willingly left unencrypted for technical reasons or some parts of the Steam wrapper, which leaves us with not much to work with. (The parts about Steam input are left unencrypted for instance, like this[imgur.com], which is why you can modify/remove those)

In any other case, this is what a Denuvo-encrypted executable looks like.[imgur.com] Good luck modifying anything when you can't even read it.

On that other issue, developers of the games themselves confirmed Denuvo's performance cost on multiple occasions so this is such a weird hill to die on for no gain to yourself (allegedly) or others. The only ones who benefit from trying to gaslight users on this are Irdeto.

tl,dr: I'd really love for CAPCOM to have an epiphany and stop putting all these detrimental pieces of middleware in their games... not just Denuvo, I don't know why you obsess so much on putting yourself in the line of fire for them when we could work together towards that goal.
Last edited by lukaself; Mar 14, 2024 @ 4:31pm
Migromul Mar 14, 2024 @ 5:02am 
Originally posted by -iD-:
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Forzdlzufcw0c1.png
gonna have in app purchases, not likely battle passes but rift crystal currency for pawns or cosmetics.

"in-app-puchases" don't nessecarily mean "microtransactions". If a DLC i buyable ingame, that's already an in-app-purchase. And I doubt, that the deluxe-package won't be buyable in that regard. Hence there ina-pp-purchases, but NOT microtransactions.

Or do you realy believe not a single youtuber wouldn't have critisized them? (and exactly that is the case.: Not a single youtube does even meintion any microtransactions.)
LongTimeNoSiege Mar 14, 2024 @ 4:17pm 
Here, I've bolded the important parts of my posts so that you can skip the extra minute of reading you'd otherwise have to do - consider that the tl;dr. I'll pretend that the extra reading is the reason you're ignoring huge swathes of this thread, instead of the truth, which is that you are arguing in bad faith and can't handle admitting you were wrong about anything ever.
Originally posted by Kaldaien:
Sorry, I don't have time to read that giant wall of text. From what I gather in your closing paragraph, you're not capable of having a discussion on this topic that doesn't push some kind of agenda.
Or in other words, "you're wrong because I said so." Also, "No, I can't name a single positive thing about Denuvo, but it's good because I said so."
Convincing argument. And supposedly I'm the one with the agenda, when you're the one here blatantly lying about malware - the only "agenda" I have is getting malware out of my $70 videogames.
Originally posted by Kaldaien:
I have zero interest in any of that crap. I hate DRM and non-defeatable obstacles like Steam Input that can break your entire game library as much as the next person. However, as a very experienced game modder, I do have interest in correcting misinformation about Denuvo, particularly the blatantly wrong claims you are making about the ability to modify Denuvo games.
"I hate DRM," says man lying to defend DRM.
Originally posted by Kaldaien:

    CAPCOM has their own proprietary anti-tamper crap that I have to workaround every time they release a new game, it's unrelated to Denuvo and it's also not Enigma Protector. CAPCOM's own anti-tamper solution is mostly intended to prevent DLC piracy, and Denuvo doesn't prevent removing CAPCOM's anti-tamper, it just obfuscates it. At best, Denuvo indirectly prevents modification of games only because it can take people not familiar with CAPCOM's anti-tamper ♥♥♥♥ longer to reverse engineer. Nothing about Denuvo prevents, nor has it ever, prevented modification.
    Moreover, CAPCOM's proprietary crap is what's wrecking the performance and stability in all of their games. I fixed Resident Evil Village's performance before CAPCOM released that "anti-piracy adjustment" patch, and none of it had anything to do with Denuvo. Again, Denuvo just obfuscated the crap making it a mild nuisance to find and remove.
"Denuvo doesn't do anything bad, except the times it does bad things that don't count because I don't mind having extra work to fix my games for literally no reason." I can't help but notice you completely ignored me calling you out for arguing semantics about the fact that Denuvo makes games virtually unusable on the Steam deck or offline.

Originally posted by Kaldaien:
Tl;Dr: Denuvo is not an obstacle to ANY form of game modification, not memory injection, not asset file repacking, not taking a hex editor and bluntly changing executable code. If we can keep things on topic that would be great, because aside from trying to correct misinformation about game modification and Denuvo, I have no desire to even be here.
Except it IS an obstacle to hex editing or any edits to a .exe. Which, as I explicitly stated earlier in the thread, can be a huge obstacle to game modding, and would have been a huge obstacle to one of the most wanted mods for the first Dragon's Dogma had Denuvo been in it. You are literally lying here. Luka already proved this in his posts you ignored because you can't stand being wrong about things so instead lie and ignore all the proof of your lies. I never mentioned it blocking modding wholesale or memory injection, in fact, I stated the opposite. So those parts of your post are a strawman.

If you really had no desire to be here, then why are you here prolonging an argument you lost by doubling and tripling down on your outright, blatant, proven lies? The answer is that you have an agenda. Whether it's being on Denuvo's payroll, or just contrarianism due to having to deal with pirate ass hats asking you for help with your software on their pirated games, you have a clear emotional reason to defend Denuvo and no real argument in its favor whatsoever.
Last edited by LongTimeNoSiege; Mar 14, 2024 @ 4:38pm
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Date Posted: Mar 7, 2024 @ 5:50pm
Posts: 239