C/I Shiv help.

[ogreballerina]

After a million games where I did not build or use Shivs, I'd like to give them a go.
Where do I start ..Asia ? I always run out of money here..but that was Mec build.
Any tips would be helpful.

[The Faceless Man]

I have tried a rush build to SHIVs with little success.

The primary issue is reaching that tech fast enough. You need "Alien Materials"/"Weapon Fragments" (research) -> "Experimental Warfare" (research) -> Foundry (engineering) -> then the SHIV tech (engineering). Timeline would be:

• R : Weapon Fragments / Alien Materials (5 days with 5 scientists)
  
• R : Experimental Warfare (8 days with 5 scientists)
  
• E : Foundry (10 days / §75)
  
• E : SHIV Tech (7 days / §70)
  
• E : Build SHIV (7 days / ~§100)

That's 30 days and §245 spent to get SHIVs. Pretty much a month and more than all of your starting capital (unless you're playing noob-mode). All that for a disposable unit with 70 aim and 10 HP. Asia would discount that by -§35 for the SHIV tech. (I don't think it applies to the actual SHIVs)

Now let's assess rushing laser weaponry:

• R : Weapon Fragments (8 days with 5 scientists)
  
• R : Beam Weapons (28 days with 5 scientists) * edit thanks to ogreballerina
  
• E : 2 Workshops (Concurrent / §250)
  
• E : 3 Laser Rifles / 1 Laser Pistol (for sniper) (instant / ~§85 and ~55 Alloys )

That's less than a month, though granted you will have to buy 2 workshops (§250) and grab the abduction mission to get the necessary 12 engineers to build them. With Europe continent bonus, that discount would be -§125 for the workshops. Edit: Forgot, workshops have an engineer requirement to build.

Bear in mind that all of the above just has raw data - no influence from picking engineers or scientists first. It also doesn't consider the other practical benefits of a foundry (other tech to research), or expenses for additional satellites. :)

Sorry that does not in any way answer whether or not SHIV rushing is viable, but I have yet to confirm and I'm curious to know (based on numbers) if it's practical. :)

[Knox]

Nice. I was just thinking about the possibilities of this as I had never used a shiv and upon coming back realized I probably could have been playing this game much better than I had been.

[ogreballerina]

Messaggio originale di Galamantyl:

I have tried a rush build to SHIVs with little success.

The primary issue is reaching that tech fast enough. You need "Alien Materials"/"Weapon Fragments" (research) -> "Experimental Warfare" (research) -> Foundry (engineering) -> then the SHIV tech (engineering). Timeline would be:

• R : Weapon Fragments / Alien Materials (5 days with 5 scientists)
  
• R : Experimental Warfare (8 days with 5 scientists)
  
• E : Foundry (10 days / §75)
  
• E : SHIV Tech (7 days / §70)
  
• E : Build SHIV (7 days / ~§100)

That's 30 days and §245 spent to get SHIVs. Pretty much a month and more than all of your starting capital (unless you're playing noob-mode). All that for a disposable unit with 70 aim and 10 HP. Asia would discount that by -§35 for the SHIV tech. (I don't think it applies to the actual SHIVs)

Now let's assess rushing laser weaponry:

• R : Weapon Fragments (5 days with 5 scientists)
  
• R : Beam Weapons (16 days with 5 scientists)
  
• E : 2 Workshops (Concurrent / §250)
  
• E : 3 Laser Rifles / 1 Laser Pistol (for sniper) (instant / ~§85 and ~55 Alloys )

That's less than a month, though granted you will have to buy 2 workshops (§250) and grab the abduction mission to get the necessary 12 engineers to build them. With Europe continent bonus, that discount would be -§125 for the workshops. Edit: Forgot, workshops have an engineer requirement to build.

Bear in mind that all of the above just has raw data - no influence from picking engineers or scientists first. It also doesn't consider the other practical benefits of a foundry (other tech to research), or expenses for additional satellites. :)

Sorry that does not in any way answer whether or not SHIV rushing is viable, but I have yet to confirm and I'm curious to know (based on numbers) if it's practical. :)

Wow..thanks for breaking it down.
I wonder why other players rave about SHIVs.
Alloy SHIVs sound good and the upgrades sound sweet.
But the time and tech seems out of kilter for thier usefullness.
I'll probably just build a few this game ( I already have Mec and Gene ) and try them out ...just for flavor.
I was going to restart and do a SHIV early rush but not now.

EDIT
Beam weapons was 24 days. Weapon fragments 8 etc ...due to difficulty level ? ( 5 scientist )

[The Faceless Man]

Messaggio originale di ogreballerina:

I wonder why other players rave about SHIVs.

Because it's a legitimate strategy. There's very little online to confirm whether or not they are viable. Someone made a guide for it here: http://forums.2k.com/showthread.php?243756-April-Base-Rush-A-Guide

That guide is pretty good. Reference for an alien base assault rush and employs the use of SHIVs. (though supposedly EW makes it harder to do)

Messaggio originale di ogreballerina:

Alloy SHIVs sound good and the upgrades sound sweet.

They are, and it sounds like this would make rushing to carapace armor over laser weaponry another viable tactic.

Messaggio originale di ogreballerina:

But the time and tech seems out of kilter for thier usefullness.

Now hold on. I'm not - in any way - suggesting that SHIV's are not a viable tactic. I was just pointing out the minimum time involved in reaching them.

Don't forget that laser tech will outfit assaults and supports for only 2 extra damage each (plus terrain destruction). Pistols will add about 1 extra damage for snipers. A SHIV is a whole salvageable soldier that costs nothing but time to repair.

You'll also be waiting for the engineers for laser weaponry anyway. Furthermore, laser weaponry is "one" tech. By getting Foundry, you open up more doors for developments outside of just SHIV's.

Messaggio originale di ogreballerina:

I was going to restart and do a SHIV early rush but not now.

You should reconsider and give it a try. I might do the same. EW changes some stuff around. :)

Messaggio originale di ogreballerina:

Beam weapons was 24 days. Weapon fragments 8 etc ...due to difficulty level ? ( 5 scientist )

Correct. Wiki's are apparently outdated. All research past the first few techs have increased research time. This might make SHIV rushing a more attractive alternative. :)

[ogreballerina]

I was referring to thier production and combat viability being more centered on early to mid game...with some leaning to late game. ( With Alloy/ Plasma Shivs etc )
You still have to have a sizeable and decently upgraded human / mec squad for Base Defense as SHIVs are not used.
Without that I could go plan a full on early SHIV build.
Just leery of the lose and lateness of other tech /laser/carapace /OTS for the meat puppets.
I read the giude you linked and it looked good but the randomness of getting that perfect start is a little off putting.
I might just do a non ironman run after this C/I run just to play with all the toys I nevver used before..see how they work, build time..any corners I can cut, best starting location.

[The Faceless Man]

Messaggio originale di ogreballerina:

You still have to have a sizeable and decently upgraded human / mec squad for Base Defense as SHIVs are not used.

For an alien base assault rush, you're right. I think they designed that HQ Defense to make it harder to rush or build up too much before the alien base assault.

Something else to consider: You only really effectively lose 8 base days of research, some resources, and a base slot to create a Foundry. After that, your research can go any direction.