Squadsight vs Snapshot in EW

[himmatsj]

Ok, so we all know Squadsight's power had been slightly reduced, whilst Snapshot's one has increased. The difference between them is finer than ever. In EU, it was always Squadsight for me. In EW, I can't live w/o Snapshot.

Reason is, I simply find a mobile sniper better than a stationary one. Also, you can never guarantee LOS to your Squadsight sniper. Seekers are a slight issue too, especially in the early game. In any case, paired with the Muscle Fiber Density G-mod, and Damn Good Ground, you easily recover the -10 aim penalty for a Snapshot sniper.

Which do you prefer? Why? Is it true Impossible (and Impossible Ironman) are unwinnable without at least 2 Squadsight snipers?

[achus93]

i refrain from calling my Snap Shot guys snipers, 'cause let's face it, you're not really a sniper if the enemy sees you,

quoted from Tv Tropes [tvtropes.org]

Publicado originalmente por Tv Tropes:

In the Real Life, there is a distinct difference between a sniper and a sharpshooter. While they employ similar weapons and both are specialized on long-range shooting, their modus operandi is different. A sharpshooter acts as a member of a platoon or company and fights alongside other men. A sniper, on the other hand, is a solitary killer and employed usually as spotter-shooter pairs. A sharpshooter is very likely to be a Friendly Sniper.

[BT]

Publicado originalmente por MattStriker:

There's actually one good reason to take a single snapshot sniper along in I/I: Low Profile + Mimetic Skin makes them the best scouts and spotters in the game (to the point of breaking it...a lot of people I know refuse to use Mimetic Skin because it's practically cheating :P), and snapshot allows them to clean up whatever your squadsighters left standing.

This is very true, I usually play with training roulette, but if you do not, then Snapshot + low profile + Mimetic makes alot of sense.

[FAButzke]

Both have their merits. I like having two snipers on my team: one with squadsight and the other with snapshot. I can't count the amount of times the snapshot sniper saved me from failure because the squasight sniper didn't have a shot. Of course, the other way around is also true.

Also, with snapshot I'm less reliant on will and aim of the sniper alone. He can get will bonuses from the team leader and aim bonuses from Combat Pheromones and will + critical from Combat Drugs (if needed). Not to mention bonuses from MEC troopers (like the Distortion Field). I never had my snapshot sniper killed. I cannot say the same about my squadsight one who once was a target of a floater (using launch to get behind my line of sight and ambushed me) and a seeker (it was my fault for forgetting there were two of those...)

By the way, this is all based on my classic runs.

[The Faceless Man]

Publicado originalmente por FAButzke:

Both have their merits. I like having two snipers on my team: one with squadsight and the other with snapshot. I can't count the amount of times the snapshot sniper saved me from failure because the squasight sniper didn't have a shot. Of course, the other way around is also true.

How big of a difference do you think it really made having that snap-shot sniper in place of - say - an assault with a rifle?

[himmatsj]

Publicado originalmente por Galamantyl:

Publicado originalmente por FAButzke:

Both have their merits. I like having two snipers on my team: one with squadsight and the other with snapshot. I can't count the amount of times the snapshot sniper saved me from failure because the squasight sniper didn't have a shot. Of course, the other way around is also true.

How big of a difference do you think it really made having that snap-shot sniper in place of - say - an assault with a rifle?

I reckon damage output? The sniper deals greater damage than its equivalent rifle. Plus with headshot, you get bonus damage on crits. Also, Don't forget a sniper has much better aim than an assault. Assuming you moved the sniper, he still has +6 aim over an assault (at colonel level).

PS: +6 aim before counting scope, elevation bonus, combat pheromones, holo-targeting and the various sniper abilities that add aim % such as executioner and damn good ground.

PSS: Also, sniper rifle gets bonus aim % the further it is from the enemy. Normal rifle only gets aim bonus the closer it is to the enemy.

[Nick Naughty]

Publicado originalmente por Galamantyl:

Publicado originalmente por FAButzke:

Both have their merits. I like having two snipers on my team: one with squadsight and the other with snapshot. I can't count the amount of times the snapshot sniper saved me from failure because the squasight sniper didn't have a shot. Of course, the other way around is also true.

How big of a difference do you think it really made having that snap-shot sniper in place of - say - an assault with a rifle?

Quite a bit with ITZ.

Snap shot makes the sniper very mobile, combined with ITZ and you have a killing spree, and there are plently of aliens that don't use cover, like the flying wave on the base assault.

Flying wave was DoA.

A snap shot sniper with ITZ will rack up far more kills than a double tapping ss sniper, the risk well within exceptable limits because dead aliens don't fire back.

[himmatsj]

Publicado originalmente por Nick Naughty:

Publicado originalmente por Galamantyl:

How big of a difference do you think it really made having that snap-shot sniper in place of - say - an assault with a rifle?

Quite a bit with ITZ.

Snap shot makes the sniper very mobile, combined with ITZ and you have a killing spree, and there are plently of aliens that don't use cover, like the flying wave on the base assault.

Flying wave was DoA.

A snap shot sniper with ITZ will rack up far more kills than a double tapping ss sniper, the risk well within exceptable limits because dead aliens don't fire back.

They're still good w/o ITZ. And even then, ITZ sees less action than Double Tap I believe.

Whichever route you choose to go, have both an ITZ sniper and a Double Tapping one.

[Nick Naughty]

Publicado originalmente por himmatsj:

Publicado originalmente por Nick Naughty:

Quite a bit with ITZ.

Snap shot makes the sniper very mobile, combined with ITZ and you have a killing spree, and there are plently of aliens that don't use cover, like the flying wave on the base assault.

Flying wave was DoA.

A snap shot sniper with ITZ will rack up far more kills than a double tapping ss sniper, the risk well within exceptable limits because dead aliens don't fire back.

They're still good w/o ITZ. And even then, ITZ sees less action than Double Tap I believe.

Whichever route you choose to go, have both an ITZ sniper and a Double Tapping one.

It shouldn't see less action, use grenades/rockets to blow cover, and thats not including flanking, or mimetic skin, or ghost armor.

Snap shot sniper ITZ can kill all those in that pic.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=197641159

And it was my snap shot ITZ which was surrounded.

[FAButzke]

Publicado originalmente por Galamantyl:

Publicado originalmente por FAButzke:

Both have their merits. I like having two snipers on my team: one with squadsight and the other with snapshot. I can't count the amount of times the snapshot sniper saved me from failure because the squasight sniper didn't have a shot. Of course, the other way around is also true.

How big of a difference do you think it really made having that snap-shot sniper in place of - say - an assault with a rifle?

Others have already answered but on top of what they've said, to me, it's a matter of preference as well. I usually don't use rifles on assaults (unless they have REALLY good aim by themselves and even then...) I like getting them really close to the enemy and shooting them in the face, so a shotgun-like weapon is more appropriate for me.

[Sparky]

FAB, yeah, a shotgun assault is great and all but its good to also have one thats defense speced (left side) and for that type I prefer rifle for some range. Also useful in early game when your soldiers cant take a hit.

As for the age long discussion of ITZ vs DT ... itz can shine in situations like the one Nick mentioned but there are situation when it is useless. DT is ... old reliable. Not epic but reliable. :) And its nice when fighting a sectopod to disable its weapon and then send a headshot at it. :))

[achus93]

the main problem with ITZ is that you NEED to kill the alien, so most of the time i had to tap its health down so its killable,
while with DT it's the other way around,
as tin.katavic said, DT is reliable...

[The Faceless Man]

Publicado originalmente por himmatsj:

PS: +6 aim before counting scope, elevation bonus, combat pheromones, holo-targeting and the various sniper abilities that add aim % such as executioner and damn good ground.

Every single one of those are completely irrelevant. With exception of the sniper abilities, all of those can apply to any non-sniper soldier. Those sniper abilities also work for a squad-sight sniper, rendering those irrelevant as well. In no way has your argument supported taking snap shot over squad sight.

The closest relevance would be that you remove the option for gunslinger, thus somewhat balancing out the penalties with damn good ground - even then, you've still wasted 1 ability.

Publicado originalmente por himmatsj:

PSS: Also, sniper rifle gets bonus aim % the further it is from the enemy. Normal rifle only gets aim bonus the closer it is to the enemy.

No, you are wrong. Sniper rifles receive no bonus at all. They suffer a PENALTY for being too close to the enemy (within 10 grid units).

Publicado originalmente por Nick Naughty:

Snap shot makes the sniper very mobile, combined with ITZ and you have a killing spree, and there are plently of aliens that don't use cover, like the flying wave on the base assault.

Squad sight works just as good for this, if not better. A sniper only gets ONE headshot, and being closer range for a 10% crit chance is not beneficial. With cyberdiscs packing a lot of HP, you can weaken them enough to let a good squad sight sniper clean up in one turn. A snap shot sniper doesn't have this kind of advantage at all.

Publicado originalmente por Nick Naughty:

A snap shot sniper with ITZ will rack up far more kills than a double tapping ss sniper, the risk well within exceptable limits because dead aliens don't fire back.

No. I can use ITZ with a squad sight sniper and rack up way more kills. Grenade + snipe all = you lose. Nuff said.

Publicado originalmente por FAButzke:

... to me, it's a matter of preference as well. I usually don't use rifles on assaults (unless they have REALLY good aim by themselves and even then...) I like getting them really close to the enemy and shooting them in the face, so a shotgun-like weapon is more appropriate for me.

I'm not arguing "preference". I'm sure if people wanted to, they can try to play this game with ballistic weapons only. All I'm getting is that playing with snap shot is playing with a handicapped sniper. Beating a difficulty like Impossible (without second wave) would require opting for squad sight over snap shot.

[Mister Veeg]

Upon retrospection I find squadsight less valuable on UFO maps/Alien Base/Final mission.

Like, it's extremely useful, up until you have to actually move the sniper because walls are in the way, whereupon it takes like five extra turns to get them set up again. (The sole exception is the last room of the final mission, since squadsight + doubletap + Invisible Spotter = Easy wrap-up)

Abductions and the like it's certainly broken, though.

[bills6693]

Publicado originalmente por Galamantyl:

I'm not arguing "preference". I'm sure if people wanted to, they can try to play this game with ballistic weapons only. All I'm getting is that playing with snap shot is playing with a handicapped sniper. Beating a difficulty like Impossible (without second wave) would require opting for squad sight over snap shot.

Well, you are. One is not objectivly better than the other. You aren't choosing to get either +5 aim or +10 aim. You are choosing two different possibilities. You are handicapping your squadsight by not allowing him to move and shoot in the same turn.

It is your preference to play this way. Laser and plasma is objectivly better than ballistic weapons, but squadsight is not objectivly better than snapshot, it is simply offering different sets of possibilities.

[The Faceless Man]

Publicado originalmente por bills6693:

Well, you are. One is not objectivly better than the other. You aren't choosing to get either +5 aim or +10 aim. You are choosing two different possibilities. You are handicapping your squadsight by not allowing him to move and shoot in the same turn.

It is your preference to play this way. Laser and plasma is objectivly better than ballistic weapons, but squadsight is not objectivly better than snapshot, it is simply offering different sets of possibilities.

This is where you are mistaken.

Squad sight IS fundamentally and objectively better than snap shot. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. It's based on several factors I've already explained constructively in this thread:

• Snipers have lower than average base HP. Shooting from a safe distance ensures the quality lifespan of your sniper.
  
  
• Snap shot deducts 10 aim from your sniper (the initial advantage they get is +5 over an assault), so just to shoot after moving, your snipers accuracy is already at a disadvantage.
  
  
• Upon reaching corporal, every class gets a number of different optional advantages: Assaults get either +def, or +crit. Supports get +move or reactions. Heavies get two attacks or holo-targeting (+10 aim for everyone). Snap shot for that sniper offers NO benefits, just removes a minor limitation of the sniper.
  
  
• Snap shot will still incur a close-range penalty (within 10 tiles). Gunslinger does not apply this penalty, which is the good early-game alternative for squad sight snipers if they need to enter enclosed spaces.

So there's no question, squad sight IS better than snap shot. Plain and simple.

The handicap of "not being able to move and shoot" is not a handicap. It's a trade-off for the little extra damage they get. Same reason why heavies get lower aim stats. You essentially "remove" that trade-off with snap shot, thus completely wasting an ability perk at Corporal rank. Snap shot basically gives you a soldier with +1~2 extra damage.