Classic Ironman is insane.

[...and a voice was screaming...]

I beat the game twice on Normal. First game, I played enemy unknown and ended up winning with 4 council members lost and numerous deaths, but I pulled through. Second playthrough, Enemy Within, with aiming angles, I don't lose any council members, and I only lose one soldier due to a really stupid mistake.

The difference in difficulty between Normal and Classic is a bit absurd. There is almost no rule you can rely on to survive except for grenades. Any cover is almost useless as many Sectoid or Thin Men can shoot and crit a solider hunkered down in full cover and in a very elevated position. Not to mention height bonuses seem to do nearly nothing for aim. Staying out of line of sight completely and using explosives is almost the only way to make sure you get kills.

Thin men drop in all around you all the time during special missions rendering all of your careful positioning useless. If one happens to drop near an isolated soldier, chances aren't good for that soldier. Your troops will most likely miss any shot they take and even if they hit, they probably won't kill. Even if they are carrying a grenade it only does 3 damage. On classic, thin men have 4 health, I think. Assault rifles do up to 4 damage without crit, but damage is usually in the 2 to 4 range. Getting your sniper fully trained is critical but they are almost useless until you get squand sight and just die all the time.

Last mission I played, I'm down to 2 soldiers escorting a VIP to extraction zone. I'm 1 turn away from completing the mission. Sectoid kills 1 soldier in full cover. Last soldier panics. Soldier shoots and kills VIP. Next turn soldier nades and kills the last sectoid. End of mission. Soldier gets promotion.

[subscriber]

Seems like you are yet to try Ironman/Impossible - Ironman/Classic is a walk in the park compared to the I/I.

After you manage to live for the first five of the game months in I/I, go back to I/C and enjoy, but beware - you might find I/C pretty boring afterward :)

[hghwolf]

I don`t get why people keep differentiating between Ironman and non-Ironman. There`s no actual difference in difficulty, the only difference is that you can`t restore an earlier state.

Anyway, most of the difficulty in Classic is front loaded. If you can make it past Gangplank while keeping your roster reasonably intact and get the Muton cap on Confounding light you`re pretty much out of the woods.

If you`re regularly losing slodiers you`re doing something wrong.

[...and a voice was screaming...]

Well, the difficulty of the content in classic is the same in ironman, but not being able to redo a mission that was a total disaster, I think that bumps the difficulty of the game up as any failed mission can easily lead to total failure in classic difficulty, so, restarting the whole game is the only option.

There's just a lot more at stake playing ironman. I'm not regularly losing soldiers. I just lose some of the good ones. First few missions I can finish relatively cleanly. But council missions usually end in failure. Especially bomb missions. Options are to try to defuse power nodes fast and maybe get killed, or take it slow and run out of time.

I first tried ironman impossible before dropping it down to classic. It was... impossible. sectoids have like 5 health to start.

I might try regular impossible if I ever beat classic ironman

[happy]

classic is the way to go, as impossible requires a bit of luck in the first months to not get eventually screwed by the increased panic system

classic can be played relying on skills only, luck helps but not in the longrun

if you re having a hard time on classic, believe it or not, that s because your way of playing can be improved as your initial post suggests

-training a squad sight sniper can and should be done before thinmen appear
-your VIPs have no reason to be close to your fighting soldiers, thats just asking for trouble
-you re playing vanilla, there is plenty of room to manoeuver and flank in vanilla, thats probably where you lack, moving and positioning, you should anticipate more, you also should anticipate drop ins, i believe they drop out of cover in vanilla right?
-rockets?

[...and a voice was screaming...]

Originally posted by happy:

classic is the way to go, as impossible requires a bit of luck in the first months to not get eventually screwed by the increased panic system

classic can be played relying on skills only, luck helps but not in the longrun

if you re having a hard time on classic, believe it or not, that s because your way of playing can be improved as your initial post suggests

-training a squad sight sniper can and should be done before thinmen appear
-your VIPs have no reason to be close to your fighting soldiers, thats just asking for trouble
-you re playing vanilla, there is plenty of room to manoeuver and flank in vanilla, thats probably where you lack, moving and positioning, you should anticipate more, you also should anticipate drop ins, i believe they drop out of cover in vanilla right?
-rockets?

I anticipate like crazy. I barely move just hunker down/overwatch. And I've had some crazy maneuvering to get soldiers into flanking positions but still no guarantees unless you are literally one tile away flanking someone with a shotgun. I'm sure it's possible. But it takes perfection and definitely some luck.

Soldiers panicking and shooting the VIP never happened to me before. But it seems that panic is a severe problem in classic.

Also, many times attempting to flank activates another group of enemies and they get a free move. So, flanking is extremely dangerous when entering a part of the map that hasn't been visited. Training a sniper is also difficult when most of the shots miss.

Some luck is definitely required to get your team trained with some of their most important skills. You have to get kills. They each only carry one nade, and I've used rockets as optimally as possible- to get 3 or sometimes even 5 kills in one. You only get one per heavy.

I've definitely had many missions go really well, and then some just go really bad or just cause a major setback, such as sniper gets killed before squadsight. Or major luck crit shots on the whole team. It can take all 4 units to kill one enemy. Overwatch or whater. Especially if trying to shoot. Try to move out of sight or hunker down, get killed anyway.

Dude, one turn away and VIP would have been safe...

Yeah, they drop out of cover on overwatch, but as I said, almost no guarantees with any shot taken, and if you don't have any nades or rockets and your guys miss...

I think I literally have to learn the maps perfectly, as I'm starting to see the patterns, The council missions seem to place enemies in the same positions every time. There really is no way to be prepared for everything but there it is possible to prepare for what you know will happen. Even then, limited options, no guarantees.

Normal became really easy, so I decided to give classic a shot with ironman to see how much I've learned and if I can apply it. To a certain extent I can, but it seems that you really have to learn the maps specifically in order to learn enemy placement so, you can really anticipate, otherwise better be luckier. I guess it takes learning exactly what will happen.

Well, I'll see if I can do that.

[happy]

nope, to play impossible knowing the maps by heart and the possible drop ins spots is strongly recommended, but on classic you need not such drastic measures

classic is not that hard and pretty well balanced, if you fail, i say it again, its because you are not playing as smartly as you could, first step would be to recognize(to yourself, i don t care personally) that you could improve

if you played as good as you think you wouldn t struggle, new xom is not a complicated wargame, it s an AAA title thats simplified(with some talent) to please the largest audience
it is not a dumb easy game but it is not that hard on classic, xenonauts is harder on classic

[...and a voice was screaming...]

I play smartly, it just has to be perfect. Luck has a lot to do with it, espeically for anything that is less than 100% chance to hit.

[Dranak]

Dude, I don't think you are nearly as good as you think you are. Luck can matter, but it's rarely as important as you're making it out to be, neither is map knowledge. Understanding the mechanics of the game is far more important. The main difference in difficulty between normal and classic is that the AI is no longer dumbed down, and the RNG is no longer rigged in your favor (on normal/easy successive undesirable results for XCOM cause hidden buffs to your rolls, as do soldier deaths).

If you are regularly putting yourself into "this shot must hit" positions and have less than 100% on it, you are making mistakes.

[Arkham51]

Originally posted by Slacker 47:

I beat the game twice on Normal. First game, I played enemy unknown and ended up winning with 4 council members lost and numerous deaths, but I pulled through. Second playthrough, Enemy Within, with aiming angles, I don't lose any council members, and I only lose one soldier due to a really stupid mistake.

The difference in difficulty between Normal and Classic is a bit absurd. There is almost no rule you can rely on to survive except for grenades. Any cover is almost useless as many Sectoid or Thin Men can shoot and crit a solider hunkered down in full cover and in a very elevated position. Not to mention height bonuses seem to do nearly nothing for aim. Staying out of line of sight completely and using explosives is almost the only way to make sure you get kills.

Thin men drop in all around you all the time during special missions rendering all of your careful positioning useless. If one happens to drop near an isolated soldier, chances aren't good for that soldier. Your troops will most likely miss any shot they take and even if they hit, they probably won't kill. Even if they are carrying a grenade it only does 3 damage. On classic, thin men have 4 health, I think. Assault rifles do up to 4 damage without crit, but damage is usually in the 2 to 4 range. Getting your sniper fully trained is critical but they are almost useless until you get squand sight and just die all the time.

Last mission I played, I'm down to 2 soldiers escorting a VIP to extraction zone. I'm 1 turn away from completing the mission. Sectoid kills 1 soldier in full cover. Last soldier panics. Soldier shoots and kills VIP. Next turn soldier nades and kills the last sectoid. End of mission. Soldier gets promotion.

How to beat Classic Ironman? Two words, MEC TROOPERS. Yea my first two months were hard as hell but after the third month and I had two Colonel Mechs things become much easier. Currently running with three Mechs right now and am flat out overpowering everyone in the late game.

[...and a voice was screaming...]

Originally posted by Dranak:

Dude, I don't think you are nearly as good as you think you are. Luck can matter, but it's rarely as important as you're making it out to be, neither is map knowledge. Understanding the mechanics of the game is far more important. The main difference in difficulty between normal and classic is that the AI is no longer dumbed down, and the RNG is no longer rigged in your favor (on normal/easy successive undesirable results for XCOM cause hidden buffs to your rolls, as do soldier deaths).

If you are regularly putting yourself into "this shot must hit" positions and have less than 100% on it, you are making mistakes.

As good as I think I am, I understand the rules of the game and the options available to me. As good as I think I am, shots have to hit, if your whole team fires on a target and doesn't kill it, it's free to kill one of your guys, basically.

I don't see how you'd ever be in a position to not need your shot to hit unless it's suppression. Or your squad sight sniper isn't in range of the enemy. And your guy who's scouting for you is in range of a 100% chance kill shot.

Oh, I have one guy standing ready to throw a grenade and kill 3 sectoids in case my shots miss from my other 3 guys. But there's usually more enemies than grenades available. And many enemies that take more than one grenade to take down. Once you've used up your explosives and it's down to bullets, it's just gambling. Getting a 100% killshot on every enemy is not very likely to happen before they have a chance to open fire on you. If the whole squad can't take down an enemy in one turn, someone on your team is taking a hit.

Also, a big difference in Classic is that thin men are much hard to kill. In normal they have 3 health, in Classic they have 4.

I also didn't say anything about how good I think I am. I am sure you know alot about the game with your 1800 hours playing. I can respect that. I definitely know how the game works. Definitely.

I think map knowledge definitely plays into this game very much. Otherwise just move one tile into view and activating a group of enemies without being fully prepared can cost you a soldier. Can't rely on cover, can't rely on hunkering, can't rely on hitting anything. Any action you take is based solely on best chance

I just gave classic another try. I did a few missions without taking any damge. First VIP mission. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ thin men....- whole team dead. Even had a sniper. Thin men are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ horrible creatures just dropping in all around you. I did much better up to a point than the last five times I tried this mission...

I don't take many losses, but if the mission is lost it's starts panic in the council and thing just get out of control. I just don't know how much loss I can incurr and still survive and eventually win, because I know I'm not going to be up against sectoids and thin men alone. I don't just start losing missions right away. But the first mission against thin men is really dangerous. I'm not sure if I fail that mission if it's even worth it to continue, because resources are stretched drastically and without strong veterans you're guaranteed failure.

[...and a voice was screaming...]

Originally posted by Plumpmrtoad:

Originally posted by Slacker 47:

I beat the game twice on Normal. First game, I played enemy unknown and ended up winning with 4 council members lost and numerous deaths, but I pulled through. Second playthrough, Enemy Within, with aiming angles, I don't lose any council members, and I only lose one soldier due to a really stupid mistake.

The difference in difficulty between Normal and Classic is a bit absurd. There is almost no rule you can rely on to survive except for grenades. Any cover is almost useless as many Sectoid or Thin Men can shoot and crit a solider hunkered down in full cover and in a very elevated position. Not to mention height bonuses seem to do nearly nothing for aim. Staying out of line of sight completely and using explosives is almost the only way to make sure you get kills.

Thin men drop in all around you all the time during special missions rendering all of your careful positioning useless. If one happens to drop near an isolated soldier, chances aren't good for that soldier. Your troops will most likely miss any shot they take and even if they hit, they probably won't kill. Even if they are carrying a grenade it only does 3 damage. On classic, thin men have 4 health, I think. Assault rifles do up to 4 damage without crit, but damage is usually in the 2 to 4 range. Getting your sniper fully trained is critical but they are almost useless until you get squand sight and just die all the time.

Last mission I played, I'm down to 2 soldiers escorting a VIP to extraction zone. I'm 1 turn away from completing the mission. Sectoid kills 1 soldier in full cover. Last soldier panics. Soldier shoots and kills VIP. Next turn soldier nades and kills the last sectoid. End of mission. Soldier gets promotion.

How to beat Classic Ironman? Two words, MEC TROOPERS. Yea my first two months were hard as hell but after the third month and I had two Colonel Mechs things become much easier. Currently running with three Mechs right now and am flat out overpowering everyone in the late game.

Well, that definitely sound like lots of fun. Ofcourse, I have to get there. I'm trying to get a perfect run up until the really nasty xrays show up.

[Halfinger]

The issue is really with the easier levels which do not teach basic risk management. When you make mistakes you usually get away with it. So Classic can seem brutal at first when really it should be the standard setting. The council missions can be very tricky though. The answer to that is make sure you have well trained troops before you get one.

Also you need to think 'what happens if I get a squad wipe?' and plan accordingly, such as pacing the training to try and get two squads and provide fillers for injuries.

This game is often lost before a mission screen even opens. The error may not be on the battelfield but the decisions which lead to that point. You WILL get bad luck so it needs to be planned for.

[Halfinger]

@Op

Sorry if I sounded condescending, I have lost many a game and rage quit so I am the last to claim any expertise. If you like the game and really get into it I heavily recommend the Long War mod. Although harder it balances the game really well.

[...and a voice was screaming...]

Originally posted by Halfinger:

@Op

Sorry if I sounded condescending, I have lost many a game and rage quit so I am the last to claim any expertise. If you like the game and really get into it I heavily recommend the Long War mod. Although harder it balances the game really well.

I've heard of the long war mod. One day I may give it a shot. One step at a time.

[Vidopoulos]

I know how you feel OP.
Instal Long War and play Bronzeman and reload every council mission 10 times till you get it right.

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY!