LW- do you use flashbangs?

[Karina]

I have lots of engineers, most of them have smoke and mirrors. Logic behind that was "engineer build for damage with grenades is on-trick-pony, i need to expand options availible to him". So, i give my engineer 2 HE grenades and 2 flashbangs.

But i noticed i almost never use flashbangs. Never i had a thought cross my mind "man, i really wish i had more flashbangs right about now" instead i have this thoghts-

"Shame my engineer runed out of HE grenades and cannot destroy that cover"
"Shame my engineer cannot contribute any damage to killing that robot- he does not have hear warheads"

So, i want engineer to be cover-removal-bot because its the only thing i use him for. My medic officer typically has 2 free smoke grenades with combat drugs (most of the time i dont use them too) so i dont need engineer to carry those too. Am i missing something?

[witch[bb]]

Flashbangs are very good for disabling enemies in the early and early-mid game. Using them to help control Chryssalids and Outsiders is especially useful. Later on they fall off because they don't work versus mech or strong psi aliens like Sectoid Commanders and Ethereals.

Early game before soldiers fall into their specialized roles, I bring 1 (sometimes 2 on crashed UFOs) on missions to help mitigate tactical mistakes. Smokes play a similar role for when you can't disable or kill aliens on the activation turn, and I bring about 4 per mission.


As for engineers, I build them two ways and it depends on when in the game it is. The first batch of engineers grab Sapper for invaluable cover destruction for the early months. I don't tend to value HEAT Warheads because I just don't feel it adds enough to their damage to warrant the perk. Also I don't like blowing up mech remains because it removes the Alien Alloys and Elerium you get from them. So I tend to build Sapper-Smoke and Mirrors. S&M is sometimes a wasted perk as I'll bring double HE on missions that I know have lots of destructable cover, but it allows them flexibility that I greatly value. My sapper engineers become Shoguns which are great at cover destruction and fantastic robot killers.

Mid game engineers are full support with no killing power. Smoke Grenade, Smoke and Mirrors, Repair, and Battle Scanners. I wish I could get Dense Smoke, but I value 4 Battle Scanners (with Packmaster) over full cover in a can. With preparation allowed from vision I usually don't need dense smoke. I pick up Telekinetic Field with my engineers which is a bigger dense smoke with a cool down. If I need to, I can still bring Alien Grenades which do a reasonable job of cover destruction even without Sapper.

I do make 1 Psi Grenade but I find them far less useful than Chem Grenades, sadly. One nice thing about flashbangs is that they work through walls and they don't lie to you about what is getting affected like smokes/chems.



Basically use Flashbangs and Smokes to either help offset tactical mistakes you make, or to allow you to make very aggressive moves like leaving soldiers out of cover (smoke helps greatly reduce crit chance).

[Karina]

I wish i could respec soldiers. I feel like i have too many incorrectly built, dead weight engineers that does not contribute anything. And archer mec is superior as cover removal bot.

[witch[bb]]

Shoguns are servicable cover destruction, but they aren't cover removal bot. They're beefy tank-busters. HEAT Ammo-Ranger-Rapid Fire is a lot of damage output. Collateral Damage as a bonus makes them worth having multiple of in my roster.

[Karina]

I read about chem greandes. They sound amazing even despite thinman and bug immunities, much more usefull then flashbang with added benefit of

-armor strip
-can affect robots
-do minor damage
-forces 1 hp alien to hunker down only

Maybe full support engie is not that bad. I will start a new playthrough- this one is a trainwreck of poor research choises and bad soldier builds. I also completly ignored alien captures and its almost september already.

[witch[bb]]

I didn't start alien captures until around late September/early October either. Alien containment facility was just too low of a priority from the options I had available. Though if you don't have the raw damage to obliterate Heavy Floaters when they start appearing, having psi available from that research path can be very useful!


As far as chem vs flashbangs - they both have their usefulness and flashes still are quite good (especially pre chem). I think the main problem with flashbangs/psi grenades is that they don't work on enemies with high psionic ability. It would have been nice if they did something to them since they don't do anything verse robots. Oh! Keep in mind flashbangs cripple chryssalid movement range so they can be super handy on the first couple of terror missions.

[Karina]

Originally posted by stormy:

Oh! Keep in mind flashbangs cripple chryssalid movement range so they can be super handy on the first couple of terror missions.

OR you can throw ap grenade. Best deffence is a good offense.

[witch[bb]]

I'm the poster child for offense so I know it! But sometimes you can't get a good throw for AP grenades to be effective :p

[Karina]

Originally posted by stormy:

I'm the poster child for offense so I know it! But sometimes you can't get a good throw for AP grenades to be effective :p

Strike first, strike hard, strike once. Xeno scum should not even had a chance to retaliate. I dont get why xcom canonically lost in first game. 2nd game should be about Humanity invading alien homeworld and genociding all of them.

[red255]

Flashbangs are only mainly useful on enemies that can't be chemmed. Crystallids and thin men.

thin men seem to generally be too far away to reliably flashbang

I generally equip my Engineer with a chem grenade x3, a Plasma grenade x3 and an arc thrower x4.

the chem is useful on mectoids, other landed robots, mutons, muton beserkers, ...if floaters land maybe floaters and heavy floaters. but mainly for screwing over mutons and especially muton beserkers. and getting thru extreme robot Damage reduction.

the Plasma grenade is cover destruction, also for creating no mans land so the enemies can't easily swarm us.

the arc thrower serves a few purposes, yes trying to get captures for council requests and plasma weapons is one of them, but it also serves as 24 HP I can give my mec (combine with a medkit from my medkit for +12 HP a turn if I need to get it back into the fight.) Or if the enemy files a large Atlas drone. I can just walk up to the thing and nab it. had a mission where I grabbed a 20-25 HP Drone. thing got like 4 kills on the rest of the landed harvester mission. (abductor)

I also give him smoke grenade and battle scanner promotions. the smoke grenades are for +20 defense, and I believe cannot be crit. great if you are going to be flanked. especially if you follow thru with TK field.

the battlescanner decloaks seekers. but its mainly for finding enemies with the motion tracker and then lobbing a battlescanner at them so I can set up a proper ambush and squadsight them

[Karina]

Originally posted by red255:

Flashbangs are only mainly useful on enemies that can't be chemmed. Crystallids and thin men.

thin men seem to generally be too far away to reliably flashbang

I generally equip my Engineer with a chem grenade x3, a Plasma grenade x3 and an arc thrower x4.

the chem is useful on mectoids, other landed robots, mutons, muton beserkers, ...if floaters land maybe floaters and heavy floaters. but mainly for screwing over mutons and especially muton beserkers. and getting thru extreme robot Damage reduction.

the Plasma grenade is cover destruction, also for creating no mans land so the enemies can't easily swarm us.

the arc thrower serves a few purposes, yes trying to get captures for council requests and plasma weapons is one of them, but it also serves as 24 HP I can give my mec (combine with a medkit from my medkit for +12 HP a turn if I need to get it back into the fight.) Or if the enemy files a large Atlas drone. I can just walk up to the thing and nab it. had a mission where I grabbed a 20-25 HP Drone. thing got like 4 kills on the rest of the landed harvester mission. (abductor)

I also give him smoke grenade and battle scanner promotions. the smoke grenades are for +20 defense, and I believe cannot be crit. great if you are going to be flanked. especially if you follow thru with TK field.

the battlescanner decloaks seekers. but its mainly for finding enemies with the motion tracker and then lobbing a battlescanner at them so I can set up a proper ambush and squadsight them

Thats a lot of consumable items. Holy ♥♥♥♥.
3 chem grenades, 3 plasma grenades, 4 scanners, 4 arcs, 3 smokes. Maybe i dont need medic with smoke grenades then, should build him for overwatch-healing.

[red255]

I also have 3 smokes and 3 Chems on the medic, with 8 medkits. (6HP each)

I use him for suppression and command charges. having alot of chem means you never have to save it. and if you need alot of it, you have it.

I've had missions where I run in, and there are 15-20 aliens charging in from 3 different sides, impossible to not get flanked. I smoke and take care of it. otherwise I would have had to retreat.

you do whatever you want to do.

I build the medic:
suppression
smoke and mirrors
Smoke grenade
Dense smoke
Lock and load
Pack Master.

its job is to just carry the 3 chem grenades and 8 medkits. it suppresses. it lock and load suppresses for days.

8 medkits aren't 100% needed usually although I have had missions where they make me feel better. but takes a while to get to MSGT so its usually 5 medkits. which I'm much more likely to go thru if I need medkits.

[Huillam]

Originally posted by Esteban Failsmore:

I wish i could respec soldiers. I feel like i have too many incorrectly built, dead weight engineers that does not contribute anything. And archer mec is superior as cover removal bot.

You can through the dev console: https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Dev_Console_(Long_War)

[Karina]

Oh the irony. Started a new game. Debuffed sectoid with a flashbang, next turn it hits 1% shot in full cover and kills 3 health rookie.

[red255]

If you keep restarting you'll never win. Campaigns should be played either until the bitter end, or it becomes a foregone conclusion.

[Fadeway]

I run earlygame engineers with a flashbang, sometimes I will give one to a scout too (but thats harder since the grenadier range is what makes flashbangs usable). 2 HE grenades are usually enough (if they are not, I will lean toward bringing two engineers or giving a third HE to an infantry) and a single flashbang can be invaluable in certain situations, like when dealing with unbreakable cover or floaters.