Problems of modern day RTS, not enough units and resources to buy them.

[Blitzwing]

As we can see from Screen shots the game is aiming to have small scale battles, with max unit limit of 8 units.

https://image-service.zaonce.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJmcm9udGllci1jbXMiLCJrZXkiOiIyMDIzLTA1L2Fvcy1hbm5vdW5jZS1zY3JlZW5zaG90c18wNC1oZWFsaW5nLWJhc3Rpb25fMTkyMHgxMDgwX3dtLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MTkyMH19fQ==

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/trhxp8F2ZVPkw9pM7mQUSd.jpg

Sure a game with less units to command and slower resource generation is going to work on more PCs and be easier to play. Problem is, as we see by games that do actually sell, people expect more things to handle. I understand the dream for the "PvP" competitive Esports RTS, but nobody is going to be happy once the game does underperform.

My personal suggestion would be to focus on single player and a gameplay that is actually deep and challenging, and that would require more units and resources.

I would recommend to the developers to check successful modern games like, Spellforce 3, They Are Billions and Age of Empires 4. People want games with substance, not another small arena that looses its population some days post launch.

[Krude]

> Sure a game with less units to command and slower resource generation is going to work on more PCs and be easier to play.



This is ridiculous, literally talking about the RTS genre here, where there's a game in development by FANS of the total annihilation & supreme commander games that's popular enough the devs of those games have had interviews with them.

We are talking about a game so optimised you can have a thousand units on the map and still hit 60 fps on older gaming pcs.

The game is called BAR, beyond all reason, if you don't believe me you can go check it out on youtube or even try it as it's free.

It's easy to think your an armchair developer but you aren't, the problem with a lot of games these days and things like the other aos games is that they usually made with the expectation to sell a lot and then development continues, but the trust in the IP's game dev has been hurt by a lot of products sold and then abandoned, the other AOS game comes to mind.

I hope this isn't what happens here, the publisher seems at least somewhat better so knock wood.

But there's really little excuse around the idea that a RTS games can't sell, the biggest issue is usually that the developers who make said RTS games don't actually understand what makes said RTS games so fun to play, they work overly on campaign mechanics and neglect things like a balanced and meaty multiplayer experience, with faction and unit variety as well as mechanical variety.


There's a reason why things like SC2, coh2, aoe2 etc are still played to this day.

Content.

Looking at coh3's issues, content needs to be at launch, not early access, not in future dlc or patches. A solid RTS needs to release as a solid RTS, otherwise people come then play and tell others "this game has potential, but wait to see if they release patches and content then grab it on sale"


Nothing stops a age of sigmar RTS from being insanely popular, outside the game itself, because if it's good there are plenty of people willing to market it for you on youtube/twitch/reddit.

[Blitzwing]

Nguyên văn bởi Plastic:

Nothing stops a age of sigmar RTS from being insanely popular

There is a very big factor, that small scale RTS games in general aren't popular.

Games that did Aim for scale, between Company of Heroes and Warcraft 3 and lover,
usually did perform quite badly.

Just check the recent flops with:
Crossfire: Legion, The Valiant, Purple War, Iron Harvest,
Ancestors Legacy, A Year of Rain, The Settlers: New Allies



If Developers want to make money with this game, they should consider what RTS players actually do play. And that are RTS like Spellforce 3, Age of Empires 4 or Anno1800.

[astgdzfgdsg]

Nguyên văn bởi Blitzwing:

My personal suggestion would be to focus on single player and a gameplay that is actually deep and challenging, and that would require more units and resources.

I would recommend to the developers to check successful modern games like, Spellforce 3, They Are Billions and Age of Empires 4. People want games with substance, not another small arena that looses its population some days post launch.

You can suggest all you want, it doesn't matter, this game has been pretty much completed aside from polish.

The game is probably going to have a story heavy singleplayer mode considering the focus on graphics and the fact that they have hired a Black Library author to write the story.

But it's hard to really know how this game will play until we see actual gameplay.

We might see gameplay at the xbox showcase on the 11th of this month or at summer games fest on the 8th

Nguyên văn bởi Blitzwing:

Just check the recent flops with:
Crossfire: Legion, The Valiant, Purple War, Iron Harvest,
Ancestors Legacy, A Year of Rain, The Settlers: New Allies

If Developers want to make money with this game, they should consider what RTS players actually do play. And that are RTS like Spellforce 3, Age of Empires 4 or Anno1800.

Calling Iron Harvest a flop when it sold better than both spellforce 3 and anno1800... :v

There is also that what is and isn't considered a flop is going to vary from studio to studio.

And lastly, the advantage of small scale like Halo Wars and Iron Harvest is that they can be put on console fairly easily, whereas traditional PC RTS very rarely make it over to console. That gives them a significant sales advantage by default.


Whether it is simply a good game or not is more important than anything at the end of the day.

[Joseph]

Nguyên văn bởi Krude:

> Sure a game with less units to command and slower resource generation is going to work on more PCs and be easier to play.



This is ridiculous, literally talking about the RTS genre here, where there's a game in development by FANS of the total annihilation & supreme commander games that's popular enough the devs of those games have had interviews with them.

We are talking about a game so optimised you can have a thousand units on the map and still hit 60 fps on older gaming pcs.

The game is called BAR, beyond all reason, if you don't believe me you can go check it out on youtube or even try it as it's free.

It's easy to think your an armchair developer but you aren't, the problem with a lot of games these days and things like the other aos games is that they usually made with the expectation to sell a lot and then development continues, but the trust in the IP's game dev has been hurt by a lot of products sold and then abandoned, the other AOS game comes to mind.

I hope this isn't what happens here, the publisher seems at least somewhat better so knock wood.

But there's really little excuse around the idea that a RTS games can't sell, the biggest issue is usually that the developers who make said RTS games don't actually understand what makes said RTS games so fun to play, they work overly on campaign mechanics and neglect things like a balanced and meaty multiplayer experience, with faction and unit variety as well as mechanical variety.


There's a reason why things like SC2, coh2, aoe2 etc are still played to this day.

Content.

Looking at coh3's issues, content needs to be at launch, not early access, not in future dlc or patches. A solid RTS needs to release as a solid RTS, otherwise people come then play and tell others "this game has potential, but wait to see if they release patches and content then grab it on sale"


Nothing stops a age of sigmar RTS from being insanely popular, outside the game itself, because if it's good there are plenty of people willing to market it for you on youtube/twitch/reddit.

campaign is essential and must be done correctly in order for an RTS to succeed, mp is good for longevity but sp is where your game get known, in short without a good sp you end up with dead mp.

[astgdzfgdsg]

Nguyên văn bởi Blitzwing:

As we can see from Screen shots the game is aiming to have small scale battles, with max unit limit of 8 units.

The latest trailer shows unit limit of 16 so it seems like it goes up during the match

[Commiss4r]

Nguyên văn bởi derpherpitucus:

Nguyên văn bởi Blitzwing:

As we can see from Screen shots the game is aiming to have small scale battles, with max unit limit of 8 units.

The latest trailer shows unit limit of 16 so it seems like it goes up during the match

this is exactly it... OP forgot buildings get upgraded in an RTS match lol

[Last Soviet]

Nguyên văn bởi Blitzwing:

I would recommend to the developers to check successful modern games like, Spellforce 3, They Are Billions and Age of Empires 4. People want games with substance, not another small arena that looses its population some days post launch.

Don't want to burst your bubble, but small arena games are much much more popular than any of this games..

For a fact small arena games were/are so popular they killed off the traditional rts genre.. because widly popular small arena game had a mod that transformed it into a even smaller arena game which was even more popular then the base game itself.. And this mod was cloned by big studios and is copied till this day.
Since then small arena games ruled PC gaming for a decade, only challenged by FPS games..
But even now when a RTS releases and has even 1% of the popularity of a small arena game, it will be considered a huge success.

You have it literally backwards

[Cortes]

Not enough building as well.

[^1BigBossMan1978 [BE]]

"My personal suggestion would be to focus on single player and a gameplay that is actually deep and challenging, and that would require more units and resources."

^Lol! Go finance the devs for a future installment, they can surely use "all of" your resourses..
Everyone should by now know that, games nowadays need to have a 'sustainable and innovative MP' aspect (bread and butter), aside from the single player portion. Only focussing on the single player aspect is a huge mistake for the longevity of modern gaming.
It's time to move and think forwards dude (the year 2000 has long since passed)!

[ArchAnge1LT]

This will be like Dawn of war 2, with tactical squad battles and resource point map control.

The examples to Sc2 and AoE are not relevant, because this game design goals are different.

[Blitzwing]

Nguyên văn bởi ArchAnge1LT:

This will be like Dawn of war 2, with tactical squad battles and resource point map control.

I did try the beta, and it looks really bad.

The thing is, even DoW2 and Coh2 have more things and stuff going on there.
You have more points to capture, more units to command, units have more upgrades and cover system. You have a significant difference between the units, like weapon teams, snipers, support vehicles, anti tank guns and tanks. And you do have way bigger impact by base build, with defence towers and upgrades.



Here by Warhammer Age of Sigmar: Realms of Ruin it's just a small blob of tier 1 units, that don't get significant improvements. While late game units are very limited. While points of interest can get only 1 of 4 upgrades. Which are quite expensive. 5 times more than a unit.
Each command like retreat or special move to cost resources is quite odd. Considering the low resource income, it makes many things just not valuable to the gameplay.

For a person who plays RTS games on PC, it just feels boring.


The core gameplay experience requires in my opinion a massive over hull.

[ThiccBlooded]

Nguyên văn bởi Blitzwing:

As we can see from Screen shots the game is aiming to have small scale battles, with max unit limit of 8 units.

https://image-service.zaonce.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJmcm9udGllci1jbXMiLCJrZXkiOiIyMDIzLTA1L2Fvcy1hbm5vdW5jZS1zY3JlZW5zaG90c18wNC1oZWFsaW5nLWJhc3Rpb25fMTkyMHgxMDgwX3dtLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MTkyMH19fQ==

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/trhxp8F2ZVPkw9pM7mQUSd.jpg

Sure a game with less units to command and slower resource generation is going to work on more PCs and be easier to play. Problem is, as we see by games that do actually sell, people expect more things to handle. I understand the dream for the "PvP" competitive Esports RTS, but nobody is going to be happy once the game does underperform.

My personal suggestion would be to focus on single player and a gameplay that is actually deep and challenging, and that would require more units and resources.

I would recommend to the developers to check successful modern games like, Spellforce 3, They Are Billions and Age of Empires 4. People want games with substance, not another small arena that looses its population some days post launch.

FALSE i had over 11, its a rock paper scissors capture point style tug of war type game with abilities

[ThiccBlooded]

Nguyên văn bởi Blitzwing:

Nguyên văn bởi ArchAnge1LT:

This will be like Dawn of war 2, with tactical squad battles and resource point map control.

I did try the beta, and it looks really bad.

The thing is, even DoW2 and Coh2 have more things and stuff going on there.
You have more points to capture, more units to command, units have more upgrades and cover system. You have a significant difference between the units, like weapon teams, snipers, support vehicles, anti tank guns and tanks. And you do have way bigger impact by base build, with defence towers and upgrades.



Here by Warhammer Age of Sigmar: Realms of Ruin it's just a small blob of tier 1 units, that don't get significant improvements. While late game units are very limited. While points of interest can get only 1 of 4 upgrades. Which are quite expensive. 5 times more than a unit.
Each command like retreat or special move to cost resources is quite odd. Considering the low resource income, it makes many things just not valuable to the gameplay.

For a person who plays RTS games on PC, it just feels boring.


The core gameplay experience requires in my opinion a massive over hull.

Played 3 matches not understanding how things work, but once you do, and people take the time, its actually quite engaging

[Blitzwing]

Nguyên văn bởi ThiccBlooded:

Played 3 matches not understanding how things work, but once you do, and people take the time, its actually quite engaging

You can actually track down that the interest for the open beta is quite low.
It is day later already below 300 active players.


Problem is, all those copies of DOW2 and Coh1 miss the point and mechanics why those games have been so good. Sure, a smaller sized RTS can work out, but it needs mechanics to compensate the scale.

I understand they have to make the game that can run on consoles, phones and potatoes, but a person on PC simply needs a different kind of RTS.

[Blitzwing]

The mayor issue I see, this game simply has no gameplay mechanics to compensate the small scale of combat.

the game has just 3 starting unit types, heavy light and range
their abilities and the 3 another units you can unlock don't have much impact on the game, because they are extremely expensive as they require the second resource. You would rather spend the resources to upgrade the unit limit 2 times, than its like half till 75% already game over.

The 2 factions we have now aren't fleshed out enough to have strategies. It would be better to properly develop the 2 factions we have now with like more unit types and actual unit upgrades, than add another 2 barebone factions.


The game has even less gameplay mechanics than Iron Harvest and Ancestor legacy.
In Iron Harvest, you could at least collect gear or salvage destroyed mechs, while there was a cover system for the soldiers. The mechs, heroes and flying units do have an impact on the game.
Ancestor legacy has some kind base build, while units can hide in grass or lay traps, or each can get individual upgrade and level up, while their abilities have a significant impact on the game. Archers can hit own units, so they aren't overpowered.
Company of Heroes has weapon teams to pinpoint blobs and fast transport vehicles to relocate squads. cover system


Realms of Ruin has nothing there to compensate this to stand on the own terms.
-you need more unit types
-you need to flesh out the counter system
-units need more abilities and upgrades
-you need to add some huge monsters for mechs and tanks
-and weapon teams / siege weapons for anti monster and anti blobs.

The only alternative to this would be to increase the combat scale with more units and ressources. Best way of action would be both.