Medieval Art, and Literature as proof of multi-racial presence in Europe.

[Googledebunker]

Since there seems to be a lot of confusion about the prevalence of dark skinned people in Medieval Europe with claims that it is a "modern" injection, or "History revisionism" I have compiled a list of art, stories, and poems from that time period as proof that there are multiple instances of more than just white folks leaving their mark on history in Medieval Europe.

This is for educational and respectful discussion only. If you disagree with the evidence that I have provided, then please provide evidence to back up your opinion.
Othello [images.squarespace-cdn.com]

Here is an artist depiction of Othello, by William Mulready painted during the 19th Century

The Moorish general from William Shakespeare’s Othello may be one of the most famous depictions of black people in medieval European history. Though a fictional character, his story is based on “Un Capitano Moro” ("A Moorish Captain") by Italian writer Cinthio, first published in 1565.

Further context: Moorish peoples were Muslims from NW Africa.

A Moorish Captain by Cinthio
https://shakespeare-navigators.ewu.edu/othello/Osource.html

Othello by Willaim Shakespeare
https://www.folger.edu/explore/shakespeares-works/othello/read/

The Sybil Agrippina by Jan Van Den Hoecke 1630's Oil Painting on display at the Museum Kunstpalast in Düsseldorf

The Sybil Agrippina [upload.wikimedia.org]

The Sybil is shown here with a whip and a crown of thorns, both attributes of Christ's Flagellation. She was one of the 12 that foretold the coming of Christ.

chafariz d'el rey (The King's Fountain painting depicts the scene of Lisbon Portugal in the then Kingdom of Portugal the painting was made in the 1570-1580 time period.
The King's Fountain[upload.wikimedia.org]

It clearly depicts a multiracial scene as a slice of life from that time period, and is an example of Globalization during the Renaissance period. The painting currently is on display at the Pálacio da Bacalhôa in Azeitão, Portugal

The Adoration of the Magi by Pierter Coecke, Netherlands 1502-1550
The Adoration of the Magi by Pierter Coecke [www.artnews.com]

The Adoration of the Magi by Gerard David, Netherlands 1520

The Adoration of the Magi by Gerard David[images.metmuseum.org]

Here is another iconic Adoration scene. Following a star, three kings unite for a much-anticipated meeting with baby Jesus. They lay before him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

Sir Morien- The Black Knight of the Round Table

Sir Morien The Black Knight [th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com]
Here is a depiction of the Moorish knight that was a Knight of the Round table. The manuscript pictured above is dated to 1350.

https://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/morien.html
A translated text from the book of Morien and how he became a knight of the Round Table during his meetings and travels with Lancelot and Gawain.

a relevant quote to support his depiction:

On the ninth day there came riding towards them a knight on a goodly steed, and well armed withal. He was all black, even as I tell ye: his head, his body, and his hands were all black, saving only his teeth.

The story of Sir Morien, also known as Moriaen, was first written in the second half of the 13th century by a Flemish author. The story originated in the Low Countries, specifically in the Flemish, Brabant, and Holland regions

The Engagement [upload.wikimedia.org]

The Engagement of St Ursula and Prince Etherius (also known as Marriage of St. Ursula and Prince Conan) is a panel from the Saint Auta Altarpiece commissioned in 1522 by Eleanor, Queen of Portugal for the Convent of Madre de Deus, Lisbon. It features a group of African musicians at the Portuguese court

Yes the majority of people in Europe were White, but there is no historical revisionism occurring by acknowledging the presence of black people from working class to nobility in Medieval Europe as evidenced by the multiple examples I have provided.

All in all seeing a couple of black people across the entirety of the game isn't going to suddenly make it historically inaccurate, but rather MORE historically accurate.

If you know of any other stories, poems, or works of art from this time period, please feel free to share them. Thanks!

[Field Marshal Zhukov]

Machiavelli původně napsal:

Don't bother. The possibility that maybe one black moor or Muslim from Mali making his way from the trans-sahran trade routes to the Ottoman Empire is impossible to them.

Do these people know of the Mongols? They traversed Eurasia and conquered very close to Europe. Are Cumans in the first game DEI?

No clearly they're racist because they're the bad guys /s

[henee]

Machiavelli původně napsal:

Don't bother. The possibility that maybe one black moor or Muslim from Mali making his way from the trans-sahran trade routes is impossible to them.

Do these people know of the Mongols? They traversed Eurasia and conquered very close to Europe. Are Cumans in the first game DEI?

It seems that you don't understand the difference between northern Africans and sub-Saharan Africans. You are welcome to stay ignorant on the matter, but don't complain when others aren't like you. Encountering north African Moor might have been possible during the middle-Ages in Bohemia, although very unlikely. Encountering sub-Saharan African borders impossibility.

[Field Marshal Zhukov]

Bee původně napsal:

Field Marshal Zhukov původně napsal:

No not really. Itinerant wanderers were a known quantity, dignitaries traveling from abroad were a known quantity, merchants traveling from fairly far afield was a known quantity.

Travel was physically arduous yes this is true which is why generally only the very fit or the very wealthy did it, but they did do it.

While travel was less convenient then as it is now in most ways in other ways it was also easier, especially since there was little to no border control and no need for incessant documents such as passports and visas and humans are known for their wanderlust.

"Wanderlust?" What on Earth are you even talking about. This was not a thing. You've been playing too many role-playing games. There weren't scads of "adventurers" just moving willy-nilly across the world. If a small group of colonists got together and boarded a ship, this got chronicled by 18 different historians and sung about for a century. If somebody's son got an itch and moved a town over, it was practically national news for a decade. You simply have a bizarre, completely ahistorical view of how people lived and moved around. I find it absolutely weird that you apparently think "dignitaries" just sort of went all over the place for no reason. No. That kind of thing was a huge event, that a kingdom spent lavishly to prepare for, and we have documented history pretty much every time this happened going back a couple thousand years. The idea that it happened frequently and casually, and that we can just sort of assume it was a normal and common thing, is just stupid silly.

No I would definitely argue that you're the person with a weirdly ahistorical view of the world, I can't find a single historian or historical community that adopts the idea that travel was super uncommon.

The poor traveled but tended to travel close to home, and the wealthy tended to travel further afield.

And your intentional misrepresentation of my statements also shows that you're doing it in bad faith. I never meant to imply that there were just scads of adventurers moving around all the time, that didn't happen, at least not often, though mercenary bands moving about was a thing that did happen.

No what you're falling victim to here is 'great man' history which is a notoriously despised view of history in historical communities because it only takes into account great men and great things and moves the little things by the wayside as if they didn't exist, it gives an inaccurate and static view of the world.

Hell theres even been skulls recently discovered in a skull mound dating back to Viking Age England that appear to be of sub-saharan descent.

[Bee]

Field Marshal Zhukov původně napsal:

Bee původně napsal:

"Wanderlust?" What on Earth are you even talking about. This was not a thing. You've been playing too many role-playing games. There weren't scads of "adventurers" just moving willy-nilly across the world. If a small group of colonists got together and boarded a ship, this got chronicled by 18 different historians and sung about for a century. If somebody's son got an itch and moved a town over, it was practically national news for a decade. You simply have a bizarre, completely ahistorical view of how people lived and moved around. I find it absolutely weird that you apparently think "dignitaries" just sort of went all over the place for no reason. No. That kind of thing was a huge event, that a kingdom spent lavishly to prepare for, and we have documented history pretty much every time this happened going back a couple thousand years. The idea that it happened frequently and casually, and that we can just sort of assume it was a normal and common thing, is just stupid silly.

No I would definitely argue that you're the person with a weirdly ahistorical view of the world, I can't find a single historian or historical community that adopts the idea that travel was super uncommon.

The poor traveled but tended to travel close to home, and the wealthy tended to travel further afield.

And your intentional misrepresentation of my statements also shows that you're doing it in bad faith. I never meant to imply that there were just scads of adventurers moving around all the time, that didn't happen, at least not often, though mercenary bands moving about was a thing that did happen.

No what you're falling victim to here is 'great man' history which is a notoriously despised view of history in historical communities because it only takes into account great men and great things and moves the little things by the wayside as if they didn't exist, it gives an inaccurate and static view of the world.

Hell theres even been skulls recently discovered in a skull mound dating back to Viking Age England that appear to be of sub-saharan descent.

Lol somebody's been watching too much "history" channel.

ALIENS!!!!

Look, things either happened, or they didn't. We as a species have a tradition of writing things down. If you can point to even a single instance of some sub-saharan, black-skinned person having visited medieval Bohemia, by all means give up the goods. But if you can't do so (because it didn't happen) stop appealing to "Well it might've and just nobody remembers or it wrote about it or talked about it," because that's not in any way a credible approach to whether or not things actually happened.

[Field Marshal Zhukov]

Bee původně napsal:

Field Marshal Zhukov původně napsal:

No I would definitely argue that you're the person with a weirdly ahistorical view of the world, I can't find a single historian or historical community that adopts the idea that travel was super uncommon.

The poor traveled but tended to travel close to home, and the wealthy tended to travel further afield.

And your intentional misrepresentation of my statements also shows that you're doing it in bad faith. I never meant to imply that there were just scads of adventurers moving around all the time, that didn't happen, at least not often, though mercenary bands moving about was a thing that did happen.

No what you're falling victim to here is 'great man' history which is a notoriously despised view of history in historical communities because it only takes into account great men and great things and moves the little things by the wayside as if they didn't exist, it gives an inaccurate and static view of the world.

Hell theres even been skulls recently discovered in a skull mound dating back to Viking Age England that appear to be of sub-saharan descent.

Lol somebody's been watching too much "history" channel.

ALIENS!!!!

Nah I actually pay attention to real historians. Clearly you've been watching too many weird youtube channels tho.

[Bee]

Happened, or didn't. This is pretty simple. If it happened, show how it did so. If you can't, which you can't, you can't credibly say it happened and expect to be taken seriously. You're pretty silly, so I think this is a natural state of affairs for you.

[Field Marshal Zhukov]

Bee původně napsal:

Happened, or didn't. This is pretty simple. If it happened, show how it did so. If you can't, which you can't, you can't credibly say it happened and expect to be taken seriously. You're pretty silly, so I think this is a natural state of affairs for you.

Idk man you explain to me how skulls from sub-saharan Africa made it into 800s-1000's England. Im not the one making wild claims that do not match up with current knowledge, that would be you, therefore the burden of proof is on you.

But for some context the River Coln Skeleton shows signs of being from the Sub-Saharan region as well as the Beachy Head Lady and there are others but those are the two most famous ones.

[Bee]

Your current "knowledge" is based on rampant speculation. "Could have" and "It's not impossible" is not the same thing as "history."

Even still, and even if I took your last post completely at face-value as containing facts (and not squinting, which is clearly is) it is bizarre and singular enough to be interesting to people *as an anomaly.* The entire reason you're referencing it as interesting is *because it is bizaare.* As in, not normal.

You're treating Black Swan events (if they even happened, which is highly debatable) as normal. Again, this is not serious person thinking.

[Field Marshal Zhukov]

Bee původně napsal:

Your current "knowledge" is based on rampant speculation. "Could have" and "It's not impossible" is not the same thing as "history."

Even still, and even if I took your last post completely at face-value as containing facts (and not squinting, which is clearly is) it is bizarre and singular enough to be interesting to people *as an anomaly.* The entire reason you're referencing it as interesting is *because it is bizaare.* As in, not normal.

You're treating Black Swan events (if they even happened, which is highly debatable) as normal. Again, this is not serious person thinking.

No, what is not 'serious person thinking' as you put it, is the idea that people didn't travel and move around lol.

It happened, fairly frequently, though obviously not in large droves as you attempted to imply I was implying which I was not.

[Field Marshal Zhukov]

Bee původně napsal:

Your current "knowledge" is based on rampant speculation. "Could have" and "It's not impossible" is not the same thing as "history."

Even still, and even if I took your last post completely at face-value as containing facts (and not squinting, which is clearly is) it is bizarre and singular enough to be interesting to people *as an anomaly.* The entire reason you're referencing it as interesting is *because it is bizaare.* As in, not normal.

You're treating Black Swan events (if they even happened, which is highly debatable) as normal. Again, this is not serious person thinking.

I mean if we're arguing whats set in stone and historically accurate in reference to a video game then alright.

Its not historically accurate that Henry, a Blacksmiths Son, would have been able to outride several experienced Cuman Horse Archers and survive being turned into a pin cushion. Therefore Henry would have died in the beginning of KCD 1 and the whole rest of the game shouldn't exist except for perhaps as some sort of dying mans fever dream of getting the revenge he desired.

Now, since we're talking about a video game and not real life, here's whats historically probable. Its historically probable that there were non-Europeans in Kuttenberg to some extent in this time period, obviously not making up any significant percentage of the population but merchants, foreign nobles and their retinues, mercenary companies seeking to profit from the ongoing conflict, from the near-east and North Africa with the slimmest ever possibility from further afield.

[henee]

Field Marshal Zhukov původně napsal:

Bee původně napsal:

Your current "knowledge" is based on rampant speculation. "Could have" and "It's not impossible" is not the same thing as "history."

Even still, and even if I took your last post completely at face-value as containing facts (and not squinting, which is clearly is) it is bizarre and singular enough to be interesting to people *as an anomaly.* The entire reason you're referencing it as interesting is *because it is bizaare.* As in, not normal.

You're treating Black Swan events (if they even happened, which is highly debatable) as normal. Again, this is not serious person thinking.

No, what is not 'serious person thinking' as you put it, is the idea that people didn't travel and move around lol.

It happened, fairly frequently, though obviously not in large droves as you attempted to imply I was implying which I was not.

If sub-Saharan African travel was "fairly frequent" to Europe during the middle-ages, we would have more evidence of it, rather than couple skulls dated to Viking Age. Has anybody even DNA tested those skulls? After all, that is only legitimate method to 100% confirm somebody's ancestry. Even today we can see Europeans with quite weird skulls and facial shapes, even though they might not have any foreign admixture compared to their ethnic group(Haaland comes to mind).

[Bee]

Field Marshal Zhukov původně napsal:

It happened, fairly frequently, though obviously not in large droves as you attempted to imply I was implying which I was not.

We're talking about whether something specific happened or did not happen. I am not interested in vanishing into an episode of "Ripley's Believe it or Not" with you. If you have any evidence, any evidence at all, of this specific thing happening, provide it. Until such time I will continue to make faces at you because you are a silly clown person with silly clown notions. You probably think there was a black samurai named Yasuke.

[Suggarnaut]

Those are the moors;

Of mixed Arab, Spanish, and Amazigh (Berber) origins, the Moors created the Islamic Andalusian civilization and subsequently settled as refugees in the Maghreb (in the region of North Africa) between the 11th and 17th centuries.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Moor-people

They were in South Portugal and South Spain.

They had no impact in Europe. They just managed to invade and take controll of some parts of southern portugal and spain.

For the game itself, black people are not existent in medieval Böhmen.

It is just pathetic how you try to put some black people in historic events so that you can evaluate your own peverse believings. Stop rewriting history. There were no black people in Böhmen!

The only black people were in south portugal and south spain. And btw they were not real black people. They were a mixed race of Arabs, Spanish and Amazigh. They were Sunnits.
They just got characteristics from the Amazigh ( the real black people). The civilisation came from Arabs (refugees/Sunnit). They invaded south portugal and south spain and became the moors.

[Oops, I Crapped My Pants]

Bee původně napsal:

Your current "knowledge" is based on rampant speculation. "Could have" and "It's not impossible" is not the same thing as "history."

Even still, and even if I took your last post completely at face-value as containing facts (and not squinting, which is clearly is) it is bizarre and singular enough to be interesting to people *as an anomaly.* The entire reason you're referencing it as interesting is *because it is bizaare.* As in, not normal.

You're treating Black Swan events (if they even happened, which is highly debatable) as normal. Again, this is not serious person thinking.

To him, it's heckin' valid history. It's all "plausible" as he likes to say

[amazingbeavis]

I love how people are making statements like absolute facts about the world half a millennia ago.