Thoughts on the DLC

[tsujni]

Just finished the DLC and here are my thoughts.

The Good :
• The main quest especially the last part in the citadel.
• The DLC was worth $30.

The Bad :
• Your choices don’t really matter. Come on BGS, you have a big choice at the end and it goes nowhere ! You already have the assets and you couldn’t script a epic space battle at the end ? Or have House Va'ruun interactions changed during the rest of the game ?
• Andreja doesn’t seem to care about anything that occurs on her home world.

The So-So :
• This engine can produce some beautiful imagery at times and at other times, things look flat and low-grade. It makes me think that the lighting system is not working correctly.
• It’s more Starfield, …. for good or bad.



Regarding BGS, I’ve played their games since Daggerfall and I don’t see an evolution in story-telling or game mechanics, just in graphics and audio. I, also, haven’t seen a decline in quality that other reviewers/commentators have stated. Daggerfall was cookie-cutter crap, Morrowind/Oblivion had ridiculously simple dungeons, Skyrim/Fallout were filled with cookie-cutter crap. Starfield doesn’t depart from this; it’s an continuation of cookie-cutter content. While playing, I imagine Noah Antwiler whining;

“Betrayal! this game betrayed me! This game sucks!"


That being said, there is something that keeps me coming back to their games and I guess it is that they have hints at something that could be truly great but they always disappoint. It would be interesting to see BGS focus on a tight, well thought out story with meaningful choices/consequences for their next game and skip the filler content. We can dream, right?

[StingingVelvet]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από lukandroll:

Starfield needs an overhaul type of DLC, that fixes the repeatable dungeons
IMO exploration is key in Beth games, and the exploration in Starfield feels repetitive and empty for me

A DLC can't change the entire game design. This is the kind of expectation that is making people review bomb the DLC. Starfield is Starfield, like it or not.

People like you and I can only hope they go back to "normal" for TES6.

[kdodds]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Nemerlight:

It honestly felt like something that should have been in base game and not paid DLC. Your choices didnt really matter and new weapons are not interesting at all. Also as a bonus you get worse framerate for no reason

??? My framerate hasn't changed at all. Choices do matter. It's an RPG and it happened. There's no fan service patting you on the back and reviewing everything you've done. For that, you should just bring the AF with you. He'll gladly tell you how wonderful you are 24/7. Also, what does and doesn't belong in the main game is not for gamers to decide. Matter of fact, gamers get no say unless the developer asks for it. And we all now what greedy little toddlers gamers turn into when everything "should have been in the main game".

[tsujni]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kdodds:

Just going to point out that, in "choices matter" games, we're mostly talking about a fan service synopsis of all your derring do. BGS has consistently avoided this as it's an RPG. You know what you did. There are very, very, very few games where choices REALLY matter. And if they were released today, people would just complain about not being able to finish "this buggy mess". Ah, but that's real choice.

By "choices matter," I mean to have your choices reflect in the game world not just as a dialog option / quest history entry. The destruction of Megaton in F3 is the kind of thing that I'm talking about. In Starfield/Skyrim, I'm struck by the complete lack of weight to my choices, they don't reflect in the game world.

Imagine that in Skyrim, if you support the Stormcloak rebellion at the Battle of Whiterun that upon taking the city, the Stormcloaks go on a pillage/murder campaign against the civilian population, execute the Jarl and his advisers and you have to choose if your going to go along with it or fight against them or try to convince Ulric to rein in his men. That would be role-playing. And your choice/actions echo into the future of the game world. If you choose to go along with the slaughter, the Blades, other non-aligned cities are against you, you become attack on-sight for Imperial aligned holds. If you choose to fight against the Stormcloaks, Ulric declares you a traitor, sends Stormcloaks, bounty hunters, Dark Brotherhood after you, you cannot set foot in Stormcloak controlled cities without a disguise. If you try to convince Uliric to rein in his men, well you better have a high negotiation / diplomacy skill to succeed, also depending on the side quests that you completed for Ulric prior to the battle - these come into play in the conversation.

They are good games, even Starfield; it’s just that they could be something great.

[kdodds]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από tsujni:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kdodds:

Just going to point out that, in "choices matter" games, we're mostly talking about a fan service synopsis of all your derring do. BGS has consistently avoided this as it's an RPG. You know what you did. There are very, very, very few games where choices REALLY matter. And if they were released today, people would just complain about not being able to finish "this buggy mess". Ah, but that's real choice.

By "choices matter," I mean to have your choices reflect in the game world not just as a dialog option / quest history entry. The destruction of Megaton in F3 is the kind of thing that I'm talking about. In Starfield/Skyrim, I'm struck by the complete lack of weight to my choices, they don't reflect in the game world.

Imagine that in Skyrim, if you support the Stormcloak rebellion at the Battle of Whiterun that upon taking the city, the Stormcloaks go on a pillage/murder campaign against the civilian population, execute the Jarl and his advisers and you have to choose if your going to go along with it or fight against them or try to convince Ulric to rein in his men. That would be role-playing. And your choice/actions echo into the future of the game world. If you choose to go along with the slaughter, the Blades, other non-aligned cities are against you, you become attack on-sight for Imperial aligned holds. If you choose to fight against the Stormcloaks, Ulric declares you a traitor, sends Stormcloaks, bounty hunters, Dark Brotherhood after you, you cannot set foot in Stormcloak controlled cities without a disguise. If you try to convince Uliric to rein in his men, well you better have a high negotiation / diplomacy skill to succeed, also depending on the side quests that you completed for Ulric prior to the battle - these come into play in the conversation.

They are good games, even Starfield; it’s just that they could be something great.

Even in FO3, that didn't REALLY "matter". Heck, even FONV, which everybody lauds, it's just more of the same, a fan service synopsis of an ending. Here's the thing, you can not really have a huge, open game world where "choices matter" without having it pathed out beforehand. How it effects other quests, what happens here and there. It limits the player to a choose-your-own-adventure type of play, it's an "on rails" story that you don't realize is "on rails". That's the antithesis to BGS RPGs where they don't want to limit the player at all. Want to be Guildmaster of the Thieves' Guild AND a Companion? Go for it. Basically the only tie-downs are faction:faction decisions. They don't impact side quests, guild quests, etc. so that the player can have as much freedom as possible.

[lukandroll]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από StingingVelvet:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από lukandroll:

Starfield needs an overhaul type of DLC, that fixes the repeatable dungeons
IMO exploration is key in Beth games, and the exploration in Starfield feels repetitive and empty for me

A DLC can't change the entire game design. This is the kind of expectation that is making people review bomb the DLC. Starfield is Starfield, like it or not.

People like you and I can only hope they go back to "normal" for TES6.

Yeah, its work, but I would't mind forking cash for an expansion that revamps the whole POI design
Because its no really proc gen, the land is proc gen, but the dungeons are always the same, and you can see the same POI several times without any significant change
This would require that the POI's were also proc gen, meaning that the layout of the maps needs also to be random
Also story elements in the existing POI's are non existant
They would have to do a system where a certain enviromental story elements would spawn in the POI's, and those can't repeat
A system where it spawn a story for a particular place, and it doesn't show anywhere else in your save file

[Berserk Slayer]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από tsujni:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kdodds:

Just going to point out that, in "choices matter" games, we're mostly talking about a fan service synopsis of all your derring do. BGS has consistently avoided this as it's an RPG. You know what you did. There are very, very, very few games where choices REALLY matter. And if they were released today, people would just complain about not being able to finish "this buggy mess". Ah, but that's real choice.

By "choices matter," I mean to have your choices reflect in the game world not just as a dialog option / quest history entry. The destruction of Megaton in F3 is the kind of thing that I'm talking about. In Starfield/Skyrim, I'm struck by the complete lack of weight to my choices, they don't reflect in the game world.

Imagine that in Skyrim, if you support the Stormcloak rebellion at the Battle of Whiterun that upon taking the city, the Stormcloaks go on a pillage/murder campaign against the civilian population, execute the Jarl and his advisers and you have to choose if your going to go along with it or fight against them or try to convince Ulric to rein in his men. That would be role-playing. And your choice/actions echo into the future of the game world. If you choose to go along with the slaughter, the Blades, other non-aligned cities are against you, you become attack on-sight for Imperial aligned holds. If you choose to fight against the Stormcloaks, Ulric declares you a traitor, sends Stormcloaks, bounty hunters, Dark Brotherhood after you, you cannot set foot in Stormcloak controlled cities without a disguise. If you try to convince Uliric to rein in his men, well you better have a high negotiation / diplomacy skill to succeed, also depending on the side quests that you completed for Ulric prior to the battle - these come into play in the conversation.

They are good games, even Starfield; it’s just that they could be something great.

The problem with this is that what you're describing, the blank slate backdrop and the "do anything RP your own consequences" style is a conscious creative choice that Bethesda has identified as part of their "mix" they use to appeal to both RPG fans and the mass market. Striking this balance is something Bethesda is undeniably good at, to the tune of many millions of sales for Skyrim etc, so it's no surprise they have stuck to their guns. Especially when just a slight twitch towards a more directed player narrative for Fallout 4 really did not go down well with everyone.

So I don't think we're likely to see Game of Thrones style thrilling stories in a Bethesda game any time soon, and I think we mostly understand that... but... what concerns me is that it feels like it's intensified since Skyrim - almost like they've become so entrenched in trying to make their writing "all things to all people", a blank slate, that any committed creative spark, any push in a particular direction, risks breaking the balance so they avoid it. I don't know if this is true but I suspect it's something like that. Make no mistake, the potential of the Starfield story and factions for story-telling is incredible, but it has mostly remained just that: potential.

[tsujni]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kdodds:

Even in FO3, that didn't REALLY "matter". Heck, even FONV, which everybody lauds, it's just more of the same, a fan service synopsis of an ending. Here's the thing, you can not really have a huge, open game world where "choices matter" without having it pathed out beforehand. How it effects other quests, what happens here and there. It limits the player to a choose-your-own-adventure type of play, it's an "on rails" story that you don't realize is "on rails". That's the antithesis to BGS RPGs where they don't want to limit the player at all. Want to be Guildmaster of the Thieves' Guild AND a Companion? Go for it. Basically the only tie-downs are faction:faction decisions. They don't impact side quests, guild quests, etc. so that the player can have as much freedom as possible.

In F3, Megaton's destruction changed the played-in world, Yes, it didn't matter for the ending and this is a BGS writing/planning shortcoming. They could have had your father find out about your involvement, the BoS, etc and the game world reacts to you.

Maybe, you're right and it's too difficult to have multiple branching/reconverging quest lines. And yes, you are definitely right that it is "on-rails" - it is simulated after all. First, players should have complete freedom. However, it I chose to do side quests; then I loose out on certain main sub-quests. There is no consequence for ignoring the "super urgent" problem and doing something else. Don't worry that ticking bomb will be here when you're done with your super important side quest.

[JacEEEBABY]

Its pretty wild to think about how a modern rpg in 2024 doesn't have choices or consequences that change the story. This is what happens when you cut every corner while making a game as easy as possible. SF is nothing more than a looter shooter.

[Ladioz]

I wish there were more achievements in the DLC

[msy]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Emphoise:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από tsujni:

• Andreja doesn’t seem to care about anything that occurs on her home world.

She does. She has about 30 minutes of recorded dialogue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b14O1zyL_aI&t=4s&ab_channel=VoiceActinginGames

There is a known bug with the "leadership" skill that make some companion dialogues disappear. Might be related to your statement.

She does have more audio and a sarcastic sense of humor but not one word about her home or family. So the other poster is right. she does not care about her home world and family.

[Mixer]

I think most people just found the story incredible boring, the planet itself is nice, but a lot of the dialogue is just incredible dry and boring.

Like you would think, a cult living in isolation praying to a snake would be more interesting.

[momopovich]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από katzenkrimis:

Just finished Shattered Space.

I don't think it took much more that twenty hours. Did everything, including some side quests.

Then you didnt do everything at all.

"Everything" encompasses all quests and locations. Some explorable locations are not even related to any quest.

[momopovich]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από msy:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Emphoise:

She does. She has about 30 minutes of recorded dialogue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b14O1zyL_aI&t=4s&ab_channel=VoiceActinginGames

There is a known bug with the "leadership" skill that make some companion dialogues disappear. Might be related to your statement.

She does have more audio and a sarcastic sense of humor but not one word about her home or family. So the other poster is right. she does not care about her home world and family.

The post I quoted says "she doesnt seem to care about what happens to her home world".

Nothing mentions her actual "home" as in house or family members.

Andreja cares a great deal about varuunkai (== her home world) and the events that take place there, so OP was indeed wrong with their statement.