Simple modding ruined?

[Racktoar]

Hey, so I've been a pretty avid modder ever since the release of Skyrim.
I know my way around mod managers (at least those I use), I know my way around the game directory, save files, .ini files, xEdit and such. In both Skyrim and Fallout 4 I have even fixed some mods myself using either creation kit or xEdit.
But, with Starfield, it feels like they've completely ruined modding.
Creation Kit to AGES to release, and when it finally did, I doesn't feel like it made and difference, especially since the Starfield modding scene was on life support it seems.
xEdit still doesn't work, probably because the orginial creator is unable to work on it as much due to personal reasons and therefore made it open-source.
But, I digress.

I've just spent last weekend and this weekend, trying to fix my game and mods.
First of, saves that have work completely fine before, have trouble loading, RANDOMLY.
Sometimes they load, sometimes they don't and I get stuck in loading screen.
Not only that, but a simple ARMOUR REPLACEMENT mod doesn't seem to work properly, when it used to work completely fine.

Bethesda did something. And it ruined everything.
The reason I blame Bethesda is because they did did change something, that's a fact, but also I have made armour replacers MANY TIMES myself in Skyrim and Fallout, and NEVER had an issue until now in Starfield. This should not be this compicated...

Am I alone in feeling the completely ruined modding and seemingly actively want to destroy the modding scene?


P.S. If anyone has any criticism of what I've stated here and want to question my competence, please, help me fix these mods if it's so simple. They worked fine before, but not after an update, and armour model replacers usually aren't affected by updates.

[oak]

Originally posted by Racktoar:

P.S. If anyone has any criticism of what I've stated here and want to question my competence, please, help me fix these mods if it's so simple. They worked fine before, but not after an update, and armour model replacers usually aren't affected by updates.

On this, there was a major update (May?) that changed the names of all the mesh files in the base game (I think that's right), meaning all .nif files in any mod released to that point which referred to base game meshes needed to be remapped. As predicted around that time, someone made a tool to auto-fix them (https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/9234),

Some mod authors updated their own mods and re-uploaded new versions, but not everyone.

If the mod you're talking about is old enough (which one is it?) running this tool across it might just fix it. I had to run it across a couple that I use, worked flawlessly.

As for the other points in your post...
We want xEdit, but we shouldn't give up hope. From early on in the games release it was clear this would take some perhaps extraordinary work, but I don't for a second think it's been abandoned, we just need to be patient.

And the saves issue? Could be any of a number of things. There's definitely been some odd behaviour, but most unloadable saves have been due to older mods AFAIK.

[Ǥɾᴧᴤʆᴧᵯᴧ]

What comes to my mind is... If, for example, an armor is no longer visible, or a mod has broken (invis textures), that the structure in the Nif files has actually been changed with an update. If you make these mods as in Fo4 and previously in SF, then it may be this change.
https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/9234 <4moreInfo
idk if you've come across this thing... it's easy to miss, i mean, at least i was surprised *g*

I can't say anything about xEdit, I didn't know that the author had released the source code. Maybe I'll look it up in the future.

And the biggest problem with the CK is probably the missing description, which is probably not allowed to be published for copyright reasons - I assume.

[Racktoar]

Originally posted by oak:

On this, there was a major update (May?) that changed the names of all the mesh files in the base game (I think that's right), meaning all .nif files in any mod released to that point which referred to base game meshes needed to be remapped. As predicted around that time, someone made a tool to auto-fix them (https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/9234),

Some mod authors updated their own mods and re-uploaded new versions, but not everyone.

If the mod you're talking about is old enough (which one is it?) running this tool across it might just fix it. I had to run it across a couple that I use, worked flawlessly.

I gave Bethesda the benefit of doubt, and just now went and used BAE to check how to file tree and file names look, and it looks exactly the same as it did before that update. The mod should still be working. This is what's so confusing, because I know it SHOULD be working, but it isn't.
Perhaps I should clarify that I replaced the Mantis helmer with the Varuun helmet mesh and the Mantis Booster pack (backpack in file names) with the model for the Deepseeker booster pack. I even extracted NEW models from the game archives and renamed them and put them as the files for the Mantis helmet and booster pack. Perhaps it's not as simple with Starfield, but considering it worked before, something else must've changed.
The original mods I based these changes on were https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/2558 for helmet and https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/2172 for booster pack.

Originally posted by oak:

As for the other points in your post...
We want xEdit, but we shouldn't give up hope. From early on in the games release it was clear this would take some perhaps extraordinary work, but I don't for a second think it's been abandoned, we just need to be patient.

Oh I know it hasn't been abandoned, but due to the fact that other people now have to learn how to make it makes the process so much slower. And I doubt Bethesda's seemingly anti-modding changes are helping. xEdit isn't that important for me at the moment, it's just a useful and easy tool to use to troubleshoot mod conflicts.

Originally posted by oak:

And the saves issue? Could be any of a number of things. There's definitely been some odd behaviour, but most unloadable saves have been due to older mods AFAIK.

What bothers me is due to the modding scene seemingly being on life support, people who created the mods don't come in and delist their problematic mods.
To be honest, I kinda held back on the more advanced mods just for that reason, because I knew they wouldn't necessarily keep working until modding tools became more usable.
But, even then, how come sometimes they load just fine and there are no issues, and then next time I load a save it gets stuck in infinite loading screen? Seems very inconsistent.
If the saves just didn't work, period, then I'd be more understanding.

But, yeah, if you can find a solutionfor my armour replacer mods, then feel free to tell me.
It should work, but it's not, so idk.
Does capitalisation in the folder names (for example 'Meshes' instead of 'meshes') affect how the mods work? I mean, my Neon Security armour replacer for the space suit seems to work fine, but the helmet and booster pack are invisible.

[oak]

Originally posted by Racktoar:

Originally posted by oak:

On this, there was a major update (May?) that changed the names of all the mesh files in the base game (I think that's right), meaning all .nif files in any mod released to that point which referred to base game meshes needed to be remapped. As predicted around that time, someone made a tool to auto-fix them (https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/9234),

Some mod authors updated their own mods and re-uploaded new versions, but not everyone.

If the mod you're talking about is old enough (which one is it?) running this tool across it might just fix it. I had to run it across a couple that I use, worked flawlessly.

I gave Bethesda the benefit of doubt, and just now went and used BAE to check how to file tree and file names look, and it looks exactly the same as it did before that update. The mod should still be working. This is what's so confusing, because I know it SHOULD be working, but it isn't.
Perhaps I should clarify that I replaced the Mantis helmer with the Varuun helmet mesh and the Mantis Booster pack (backpack in file names) with the model for the Deepseeker booster pack. I even extracted NEW models from the game archives and renamed them and put them as the files for the Mantis helmet and booster pack. Perhaps it's not as simple with Starfield, but considering it worked before, something else must've changed.
The original mods I based these changes on were https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/2558 for helmet and https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/2172 for booster pack.

Ah, my bad. You're talking about your own modifications not working. Probably need someone who's more familiar with the new CK than me for that.

Originally posted by oak:

As for the other points in your post...
We want xEdit, but we shouldn't give up hope. From early on in the games release it was clear this would take some perhaps extraordinary work, but I don't for a second think it's been abandoned, we just need to be patient.

Oh I know it hasn't been abandoned, but due to the fact that other people now have to learn how to make it makes the process so much slower. And I doubt Bethesda's seemingly anti-modding changes are helping. xEdit isn't that important for me at the moment, it's just a useful and easy tool to use to troubleshoot mod conflicts.

I've used xEdit more in the last few years than the official editing tools (in fact it hasn't been since GECK and Oblivion days that I've used the Bethesda tools - I just haven't created mods in that time). I do know that the people working on xEdit have been doing it for years already though, so hopefully the hurdle isn't that big for them.

I've just been using, not creating mods, with Starfield so far. Before and since the CK release. I think I've only encountered a couple that needed to be cut from my load order due to not being keep current by the authors.

Hopefully your thread grabs the attention of other people currently working with the CK - alternatively, if I were in your shoes I'd likely pop into the BGS discord and see if someone (not BGS, but another modder) could provide any assistance.

[Racktoar]

Originally posted by oak:

Ah, my bad. You're talking about your own modifications not working. Probably need someone who's more familiar with the new CK than me for that.

Thing is, it shouldn't even need to CK. Replacers have alway just been loose overriding existing files. That's it. any plugin is completely unnecessary. If it turns out that Bethesda has made it so you HAVE to have a plugin, then they've made replacer mods fundamentally affect your load order. And that's objectively BAD.
It could cause big issues if I choose to uninstall an armour replacer mod.
Hopefully, this isn't the case, though.

I've used xEdit more in the last few years than the official editing tools (in fact it hasn't been since GECK and Oblivion days that I've used the Bethesda tools - I just haven't created mods in that time). I do know that the people working on xEdit have been doing it for years already though, so hopefully the hurdle isn't that big for them.

Originally posted by oak:

Hopefully your thread grabs the attention of other people currently working with the CK - alternatively, if I were in your shoes I'd likely pop into the BGS discord and see if someone (not BGS, but another modder) could provide any assistance.

I might have to... For now I installed a different mantis replacer that I know works. But it uses a plugin so I'm doing it reluctantly.

[kdodds]

xEdit is being actively worked on and has always been open, iirc. The mod scene is not dead, there are roughly 20 new mods per day on Nexus. There absolutely are older mods that have not been updated that do cause any number of issues, this is the fault of modders, to some extent, but to Nexus as well for disallowing removal/deletion of mods.

There have been substantial changes in the CK and engine. I would suggest maybe watching some CK tutorials and rebuilding from vanilla on up, abandoning old, non-working saves.

[Racktoar]

Originally posted by kdodds:

xEdit is being actively worked on and has always been open, iirc. The mod scene is not dead, there are roughly 20 new mods per day on Nexus. There absolutely are older mods that have not been updated that do cause any number of issues, this is the fault of modders, to some extent, but to Nexus as well for disallowing removal/deletion of mods.

There have been substantial changes in the CK and engine. I would suggest maybe watching some CK tutorials and rebuilding from vanilla on up, abandoning old, non-working saves.

As I stated, I know xEdit is still being worked on, but the work being done is less efficient because of the reasons stated above. I know it will work eventually, at that point the modding scene will be even more dead.

It appears dead, because if it wasn't the modders would come back and deal with their mods, but many have done nothing since last year. And if you wanna argue about at what point it should be considered dead, but at the very least it's dying.

20 mods a day is definitely an exaggeration. I see on Nexus, 64 mods the last week, that's maximum 10 per day. And that's only cause CK is new and SOME people have returned.
Many of those mods are simply language translations. I wouldn't expect this to keep up either.
Nexusmods allow you delist your mods, I've seen authors do it MANY times.

I find it ludicrous that a update after the game's full release would break a save, and until anyone can prove that my limited use of mods has broken anything, I refuse to believe my saves are beyond saving.
I have actively tried to keep my saves and few stability relevant mods up to date to avoid these issues, because I know sudden extreme changes caused by waiting too long will break saves.
Through my careful methods I have been able to keep my save files working flawlessly. This is the first time they break.
Are you suggesting Bethesda's update actually broke our save files? I don't think many NG+ players will be very happy with that.

[Racktoar]

I decided to indiviually look through my mod list to see if any mod might affect save stability.
What I noticed was that most mods, are textures replacers, some are model replacers, a few UI editors, then a few have .esm files which could actually affect stability, but most of them only do minor changes that I doubt would break a save, it's all very simple stuff.
And unless they fundamentally changed the way plugins are structured adn read, I doubt it would cause any issues.
The only real one that could potentially cause issues is a mod called 'Summoning of Ship - Ship Remote Control - Land - Take off - Set gravity' https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/6216. It has scripts, and it hasn't been updated since last year, but it has worked fine for me all the way until last update, so I doubt it's that.
And if it is, I want someone to prove it to me.

I'm not about to throw away hours of work in-game because of someones assumptions that I am some mod hoarder.

I want to make it abundantly clear that I have no CTDs. My game is stable. Only real issue are the mantis helmet and backpack replacers not displaying properly mentioned above as well as the saves having trouble loading. That's it. No crash when loading save, no crash while in-game, nothing. Only loading.

[jonnin]

Ive had a number of problems as well, not as a creator, but so far the 3 or 4 I have tried all caused problems and had to be removed, for example I tried the empty 1x1 habs and my ship became transparent and I would fall through it, triggered a teleport and fall again sometimes or sometimes was safe until I took a step, then fall... Ive ripped everything I tried back out and don't really trust any of it.

[HeyYou]

Originally posted by Racktoar:

I decided to indiviually look through my mod list to see if any mod might affect save stability.
What I noticed was that most mods, are textures replacers, some are model replacers, a few UI editors, then a few have .esm files which could actually affect stability, but most of them only do minor changes that I doubt would break a save, it's all very simple stuff.
And unless they fundamentally changed the way plugins are structured adn read, I doubt it would cause any issues.
The only real one that could potentially cause issues is a mod called 'Summoning of Ship - Ship Remote Control - Land - Take off - Set gravity' https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/6216. It has scripts, and it hasn't been updated since last year, but it has worked fine for me all the way until last update, so I doubt it's that.
And if it is, I want someone to prove it to me.

I'm not about to throw away hours of work in-game because of someones assumptions that I am some mod hoarder.

I want to make it abundantly clear that I have no CTDs. My game is stable. Only real issue are the mantis helmet and backpack replacers not displaying properly mentioned above as well as the saves having trouble loading. That's it. No crash when loading save, no crash while in-game, nothing. Only loading.

Which replacer are you using? I had issues with them not showing up as well, had to update mesh paths et. al., and all is good.

The missing resources can cause infinite loading screens, but, I haven't seen crash while saving yet.

[Racktoar]

Originally posted by HeyYou:

Originally posted by Racktoar:

I decided to indiviually look through my mod list to see if any mod might affect save stability.
What I noticed was that most mods, are textures replacers, some are model replacers, a few UI editors, then a few have .esm files which could actually affect stability, but most of them only do minor changes that I doubt would break a save, it's all very simple stuff.
And unless they fundamentally changed the way plugins are structured adn read, I doubt it would cause any issues.
The only real one that could potentially cause issues is a mod called 'Summoning of Ship - Ship Remote Control - Land - Take off - Set gravity' https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/6216. It has scripts, and it hasn't been updated since last year, but it has worked fine for me all the way until last update, so I doubt it's that.
And if it is, I want someone to prove it to me.

I'm not about to throw away hours of work in-game because of someones assumptions that I am some mod hoarder.

I want to make it abundantly clear that I have no CTDs. My game is stable. Only real issue are the mantis helmet and backpack replacers not displaying properly mentioned above as well as the saves having trouble loading. That's it. No crash when loading save, no crash while in-game, nothing. Only loading.

Which replacer are you using? I had issues with them not showing up as well, had to update mesh paths et. al., and all is good.

The missing resources can cause infinite loading screens, but, I haven't seen crash while saving yet.

I linked them further up. the backpack from this mod https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/2172 and the helmet from this https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/2558.
They're essentially just renamed files of deepseeker backpack and varuun helmet.
If the paths and references in the .nif files themselves is the issue, I guess I'll have to use the tool people linked above.

[HeyYou]

Originally posted by Racktoar:

Originally posted by HeyYou:

Which replacer are you using? I had issues with them not showing up as well, had to update mesh paths et. al., and all is good.

The missing resources can cause infinite loading screens, but, I haven't seen crash while saving yet.

I linked them further up. the backpack from this mod https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/2172 and the helmet from this https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/2558.
They're essentially just renamed files of deepseeker backpack and varuun helmet.
If the paths and references in the .nif files themselves is the issue, I guess I'll have to use the tool people linked above.

Last update back in september..... Yeah, run the tool on those two, see what happens.

[AuddieD]

I used to use the Batman Mantis suit. I stopped using it because of this. It was made before the CK. It never worked right after the CK. Someone already mentioned the program that fixes model/texture names/paths. It fixed the two other replacer mods that I used and they still work now. The only other thing is maybe textures? I had to relearn those, though it's not the textures per se, It's the materials. It's a long shot but maybe this helps. Maybe it doesn't..

https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/articles/411

[Racktoar]

Originally posted by HeyYou:

Originally posted by Racktoar:

I linked them further up. the backpack from this mod https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/2172 and the helmet from this https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/2558.
They're essentially just renamed files of deepseeker backpack and varuun helmet.
If the paths and references in the .nif files themselves is the issue, I guess I'll have to use the tool people linked above.

Last update back in september..... Yeah, run the tool on those two, see what happens.

Thing is, I used BAE to extract those very same models from deepseeker (neon diver in files) and varuun folders in the Starfield - Meshes01.ba2 archive. That means the models are UP TO DATE. Or should be, unless Steam failed to update properly and the files are not as they should be.

[HeyYou]

Originally posted by Racktoar:

Originally posted by HeyYou:

Last update back in september..... Yeah, run the tool on those two, see what happens.

Thing is, I used BAE to extract those very same models from deepseeker (neon diver in files) and varuun folders in the Starfield - Meshes01.ba2 archive. That means the models are UP TO DATE. Or should be, unless Steam failed to update properly and the files are not as they should be.

No clue there......