Making space combat less bad.

[onewhofound]

If you do not understand that Starfield's space combat is bad, this is not the thread for you. Please go elsewhere and tell other people to get better at the game.

The biggest thing is that there needs to be a 3D radar readout. One of the reasons that space combat isn't interesting is that you have no situational awareness. You just point your mouse in the direction of a caret symbol on your HUD ring and hope it is somewhere where you can shoot at it.

In 1993 X-Wing essentially perfected the space radar concept with two screens, one showing the 180 degrees in front, and another showing the same for the rear. Blips had colors for hostile/friendly and got larger the closer they were. Even with the stone-knives-and-bearskins graphics it actually felt like I was flying a ship in space. Why Starfield doesn't do it the exact same way is beyond me.

[Cellar_Cat]

Admittedly not a fan of the circle with arrows approach either. Even when it comes time to loot wrecks it's confusing trying to tell which I have visited, and I don't really feel like looting every bit of junk and having to drop it later, so I just end up leaving some.

But, IMO the biggest issue the combat has is the relative lack of any defensive measures. You eventually get the perk to make boosting drop targeting, and that's nice but it's... one. Just one thing. So there are basically two approaches to combat I find: spec into avoiding damage in a fast ship and performing hit and run attacks (I do this early on), or doing so much damage so fast that everyone dies before you do (more of a late game C class thing).

Oddly, I am not really sure there's much point in an intermediate B class ship. I tend to go from A straight to C.

This isn't to say you can't make it work. Even on the hardest setting it's do-able once you learn the mechanics. They're just... very bare.

[onewhofound]

Another thing that would help is a separate difficulty slide for ground and space combat.

Max difficulty on the ground still feels too easy, but in space it means you are destroyed in less than a minute despite max shields and evasive maneuvers.

[onewhofound]

Originally posted by Cellar_Cat:

Admittedly not a fan of the circle with arrows approach either. Even when it comes time to loot wrecks it's confusing trying to tell which I have visited, and I don't really feel like looting every bit of junk and having to drop it later, so I just end up leaving some.

But, IMO the biggest issue the combat has is the relative lack of any defensive measures. You eventually get the perk to make boosting drop targeting, and that's nice but it's... one. Just one thing. So there are basically two approaches to combat I find: spec into avoiding damage in a fast ship and performing hit and run attacks (I do this early on), or doing so much damage so fast that everyone dies before you do (more of a late game C class thing).

Oddly, I am not really sure there's much point in an intermediate B class ship. I tend to go from A straight to C.

This isn't to say you can't make it work. Even on the hardest setting it's do-able once you learn the mechanics. They're just... very bare.

(Don't wrecks disappear once you have looted them...?)

You are absolutely right about not being able to avoid damage. Even with a max speed ship you really can't avoid damage in any kind of reasonable fashion other than flying out of range. I remember being able to dodge enemy fire much more effectively in an A-Wing as opposed to a B-Wing, and in this game it seems like every second I am in range I am taking damage no matter how much I evade.

[Zorinda]

I agree that fighting space battles is really janky. I've managed a few, but I've blown up a few times. I generally avoid being in space as much as possible and quick travel everywhere. Yeah, not really the point in a space game. At least flying the Razorleaf has avoided one battle because the spacers fled screaming "Mantis!" :D

[SickTag]

That is because space combat was an after thought.

[Sea Base]

Just stick in the enemy ships blind spots, that is, behind them and put objects between you and others. That's the 3rd and best way to be honest.
Admittedly this can be a little hard to do if you aren't notably quicker since the AI only jousts, but that is very much exploitable as anyone who has played ED is used to. With the power distribution system, I dont really get why they made it so clunky compared to ED when it's so simular and could be make just as integral as it should be, instead of the marginal gains you get right now. Switching power from lasers to kenetic to power conserve your engines or shields is just a pain.

Gotta say I dont really see the point in a radar system for combat, everything is so close its just a matter of turning, but certainly tracking loot thats flown off could be done better... well, if there is any reason to. Lets be honest, you don't need that loot past ~level 15, the gun trade at that point should have you flush with enough cash to buy anything you actually require.

[Cellar_Cat]

Originally posted by onewhofound:

(Don't wrecks disappear once you have looted them...?)

Only if you empty them. I tend not to have a big cargo hold until late game when my ship is some kind of dreadnought, so I am looking for credits and (sometimes) ship parts and that's it. Everything else means that I have to stop later and drop stuff.

It should not even be an issue really... games have solved it forever ago. Consider in EVE where (last time I played it anyway) a wreck you have looted has an icon of a different shade from one you have not.

[S7ELI7S]

I honestly like starfield space combat. It's better than the space combat in star citizen alpha 3.0 or whatever.

Infinity Battlescape has some decent implementations. The speeds can get high, too. And missiles can have 40 km of range, making strike of facilities feel strategic.

Children of a Dead Earth would be the most accurate depiction of space combat.

But for starfield, there are some excellent parts that keep the immersion pretty well. The 3000 to 4000 meter ranges on some weapons means that there is a strategic element. There's boost and shields. Think of shields as an advanced CRAM CWIS (counter rocket artillery mortar weapon system or close in weapon system) with smart explosives that handles incoming threats.

Boosting with a skill can emulate the use of electronic warfare and other signal tracking disruptions like sophisticated flares to trick weapon systems.

The ships are slow. Unrealistically slow. But there IS a way for direct thruster control.

Basically, yeah, it could be improved. Especially with a radar. But I would still rate space combat in starfield as more realistic than in star citizen alpha 3.9 or whatever.

Starfield has the essence of a very advanced space warfare system. Everything is already present, and it's also implemented very well.

I especially liked the Targeting feature that is almost like VATS, but better. It SLOWS down time. With the advanced and complicated environments of space combat, it would make sense for information processing technologies to allow for such an interface. Very similar to SUPERHOT.

SUPERHOT is awesome. The AI NPC's were made by a machine learning algorithm to be VERY efficient. But STILL human like.

meaning, if a player can kill 10 targets in 9.8 seconds by aiming quick and fast, the NPC's with their reaction time upon seeing an enemy and aiming, will be able to hit a target 10 times in 9.9 seconds. Just slightly slower than a player with excellent realistic mouse aiming skills. The NPC's feel like real humans because they aren't BETTER than humans, but still close enough to where it is as challenging to fight against them as fighting players. But, the AI NPC's also PREDICT very well. They aim where the player COULD go. They know the RANGE at which a player, even sprinting, cannot move out of the way of the bullet due to projectile velocity. And they KNOW that multiple opponents at once means the player is out of options.

In REAL TIME, a player is dead within 10 seconds, because they are essentially dealing with 10 targets that are all aiming to get different vantage points and perspectives on the player. Even when aiming faster than the ai, covering corner, it becomes impossible. But the player, being able to PAUSE time by not moving, is essentially playing a real time strategy game with PAUSE. When they move their arm to aim, the game speeds up. But they CANNOT move their arm faster than a bullet. There is a maximum speed to the arm movement. So moving the arm faster just accelerates time more than 1:1.

This means that the player has all the time necessary to DECIDE what to do next. Decide to scan enemies at a corner (environmental data collection) or MEASURE what targets to aim at next. The player has all the time necessary to DECIDE what to do next. Even if their ARM SPEED for the weapon, their weapons projectile speed, and even their sprint speed does not change, the ability to pause time and THINK about the next best move thus ENHANCES performance enough to allow a player to handle 50 enemies.

The ability to be AWARE of more information, and the ability to analyze and make complex choices based on evaluated information, in an a fast paced environment, leads to enhanced performance.

And a feature to slow down time in Starfield. (Weapon wheel switching on ground or Targeting skill in Space) is simply AWESOME.

Yes, there could be more improvements to Starfield to make space combat more immersive than some Space Sims. But at the same time, the foundations are there. Wreckages don't immediately stop, they continue on with the trajectory. It's a nice visual touch.

A radar would be nice, too, though.

[Martin]

I've grown really fond of the turrets.. having 4 little weak turrets just pewpewing away at a ship is fun to watch.. just have to remember to disable them if you want to capture the ship.

Tbh i find space combat hard enough as it is, but then i'm often facing off against lv 70 pirates and they hit hard.. so killing them asap is all i really want to do.

Having a radar for example would just give me more to look for during a fight and watching the screen, aiming, shooting and watching shields is enough.. unless the rader and shields were put in a better location, like the middle of the screen around the aiming cursor.. the directional arrows are good enough for me.

I do wish the targeting skill was improved i don't like the way it's implemented like it is.

[ƎϽ∀ƎԀ]

I think that the #1 problem people are having is that they are trying to dog fight at full throttle. I discovered early on that doing so just puts you in a wide arc around your target and you can't orient your weapons on them. As the first tutorial states, keep your speed in the middle and you can manoeuvre way faster and stay on target. Lvl 11 with the starter ship, upgraded to the best I could at pilot A skill, I had no problem taking out 3 opponents rated up to lvl 35. Even made it through the last battle of the UC Vanguard ( on normal ), although it did kill me 9 times to get through, lol.

[Prowl]

Originally posted by Martin:

I've grown really fond of the turrets.. having 4 little weak turrets just pewpewing away at a ship is fun to watch.. just have to remember to disable them if you want to capture the ship.

Tbh i find space combat hard enough as it is, but then i'm often facing off against lv 70 pirates and they hit hard.. so killing them asap is all i really want to do.

Having a radar for example would just give me more to look for during a fight and watching the screen, aiming, shooting and watching shields is enough.. unless the rader and shields were put in a better location, like the middle of the screen around the aiming cursor.. the directional arrows are good enough for me.

I do wish the targeting skill was improved i don't like the way it's implemented like it is.

Well placed turrets just shred them. I also hate the VATS targetting. I'd rather we just dog fight it out but the EM weapon hits sub systems where I target so it forces me to get in behind them to drop the engines.

If they wanted to keep it simple they could have gone with a rock, paper, scissor approach though I'd rather have each weapon system have some counter measure. In this way different ships may be more or less a threat based on your ship build.

[Amon]

I quite like it. Once more mods kick in ıts gonna be even better

[kdodds]

There really are skills and tactics to full 3D combat and combat movement, and "improving" the HUD isn't really going to help with that. Look, I used to smoke friends in Doom, then came this little game called Descent, and all of a sudden a bunch of those guys were smoking me left and right. It took a bit of getting used to. Same here. And I know it doesn't help that you're transitioning from flight to floor combat throughout the game. I know you didn't want this OP, but read a bit, it might help and I'm not telling you to "git gud".

1. Charge mobs at an angle. Usually you're already target locked on one, so pick that one. Boost at the ship, not directly at it, off at an angle.

2. Once you're close to passing like jousting fools, slam on the brakes. Spin and follow, lasers blasting.

3. Don't worry about the other ships, just concentrate on your target.

4. Make a habit of looking down right and using ship parts.

5. Don't forget that you also have a Y button (or whatever the kb equivalent is). In the Frontier, these are your missiles and they do a tremendous amount of damage. But whatever you have assigned to Y, don't ignore it. And don't fire it prematurely.

6. If you joust past one another repeat from 1. Same if you've destroyed the ship, find and target the next one (done for you usually) and start from 1.

Hope this helps because I fear changing the HUD really isn't going to help. Up ^ is up, seriously, that's all there is to it, that's where they are.

[PvtParts296]

"Don't worry about other ships" not possible, even with the biggest shield in the game, and I am fighting against more than one ship I will be hitting one lvl 70 Spacer Hyena and the level 50 and level 20 will destroy me before I can get the shields down, tried killing off the lower level ones and the level 70 scoots behind me and kills me before I can even boost away.

I am level 90 on ng+11 with a maxed out ship, cannot build even one more window, with a mobility of 86 with maxed out shield skill and engine skill and they still demolish me.

[Low Standards]

This was a mini-game nothing else. Starfield couldn't compare to X-wing if you gave it another billion dollars to develop.