Body Types Are Strange

[Call Sign: Raven]

I'm all for self expression.

But, isn't it weird that I can't express myself as I am? In Starfield, Elden Ring, and other modern games where I get to pick a gender, I want to also be able to pick what I am, not what Body Type I am.

If I put "straight" as tag to start a Twitch stream, I get a warning that I am using an invalid tag. Yet "gay" or "lesbian" or "bi" are all allowed tags. Why is straight not allowed? Why are the body types that I normally associate with not allowed in modern video games?

I'm here to try and bridge some understanding. My ultimate question:

Why can't we have choices to be male, female, body type 1, and body type 2?

Better yet, why can't we be given a body that can be formed as we see fit, and then just type what we want to be called? It seems there are ways to make everyone happy, without erasing anybody at all.

[Defective Dopamine Pez Dispenser]

I will attempt just once to write a good faith, earnest reply to this topic of discussion in the context of game design and mechanics/systems. If it doesn't work, I'm going back to just blocking people and ignoring the topic entirely.

The customization options are functional, not prescriptively definitive. By making them generic rather than defining them, people can make a character look the way they want it to, without ascribing prescriptively definitive characteristics outside of aesthetics to them.

Adding a "man" and "woman" tag to the body types does nothing functionally to make them different from "type 1" and "type 2." Unlike pronouns, which actually impact how NPCs refer to you in-game, and allow you control over how you're addressed, no one in the game is looking at your body type choice and addressing you differently on that basis.

Imagine a scenario where someone happens to be stereotypically "feminine" coded in appearance according to society, but is a cis dude. As a youngster, that was me. I had a very cherubic face, and long hip length hair. and was also on the heavier side so I had a visibly large chest. I cannot tell you how many times people would call me miss, girl, etc.

If I was making myself at that age in this game, I'd need to choose visual options that comported with that. And if those visual options were labeled "woman," that would be a bit lame. By giving them generic labels, as well as pronoun options, it separates appearance from gender and allows people to truly create whatever character they want (for the most part, of course.)

The same is true of the walk. Using myself as another example, my gate is a little distinctive. I always choose the supposedly feminine coded walk in games, because that's accurate to how I move in real life. But again, I'm a cis dude. Choosing "woman" (as I often have to in, say, wrestling game CAWs) is, again, kind of lame.

And this is just me as a cis dude. It doesn't even touch on how these options also allow trans and nonbinary persons to create the characters they want (or just people who'd like to roleplay trans and nonbinary characters.) I think sometimes people forget that freedom to customize your character, how they look, how they move, how they emote, etc. is not just something for LGBTQ+ representation. It actually expands roleplay and creation freedom for everyone.

There is nothing in the game stopping anyone from playing as cis or traditionally gender coded characters. You choose the body type that comports with the appearance you want, and you choose the pronoun that comports with who you are and/or wish to be in the game. Honestly this is a complete non-issue and I don't understand why it's such a topic of debate. Adding a "man" and "woman" tag in place of body or walk 1 and 2 doesn't do anything to functionally change that, it just makes the options available prescriptive instead of open.

(Usual disclaimer, not necessarily directed at OP incidentally: Transphobes, bigots, people equating trans people to mental illness, talking about conspiracy theories, entirely optional game design elements being "forced down their throats," etc. will be blocked and reported and not engaged with. Do not attempt to engage with me, you won't receive one iota of attention. I don't care what your qualms with this system are. I'm simply explaining the logic behind why it exists and the flexibility in roleplaying it provides, which is the whole point. Beyond that, I do not care about your culture war, false equivalencies, or beliefs, and will not engage. Keep fishing if that describes you, you're barking up the wrong tree.)

[Silverino]

Originally posted by Aikido:

I will attempt just once to write a good faith, earnest reply to this topic of discussion in the context of game design and mechanics/systems. If it doesn't work, I'm going back to just blocking people and ignoring the topic entirely.

The customization options are functional, not prescriptively definitive. By making them generic rather than defining them, people can make a character look the way they want it to, without ascribing prescriptively definitive characteristics outside of aesthetics to them.

Adding a "man" and "woman" tag to the body types does nothing functionally to make them different from "type 1" and "type 2." Unlike pronouns, which actually impact how NPCs refer to you in-game, and allow you control over how you're addressed, no one in the game is looking at your body type choice and addressing you differently on that basis.

Imagine a scenario where someone happens to be stereotypically "feminine" coded in appearance according to society, but is a cis dude. As a youngster, that was me. I had a very cherubic face, and long hip length hair. and was also on the heavier side so I had a visibly large chest. I cannot tell you how many times people would call me miss, girl, etc.

If I was making myself at that age in this game, I'd need to choose visual options that comported with that. And if those visual options were labeled "woman," that would be a bit lame. By giving them generic labels, as well as pronoun options, it separates appearance from gender and allows people to truly create whatever character they want (for the most part, of course.)

The same is true of the walk. Using myself as another example, my gate is a little distinctive. I always choose the supposedly feminine coded walk in games, because that's accurate to how I move in real life. But again, I'm a cis dude. Choosing "woman" (as I often have to in, say, wrestling game CAWs) is, again, kind of lame.

And this is just me as a cis dude. It doesn't even touch on how these options also allow trans and nonbinary persons to create the characters they want (or just people who'd like to roleplay trans and nonbinary characters.) I think sometimes people forget that freedom to customize your character, how they look, how they move, how they emote, etc. is not just something for LGBTQ+ representation. It actually expands roleplay and creation freedom for everyone.

There is nothing in the game stopping anyone from playing as cis or traditionally gender coded characters. You choose the body type that comports with the appearance you want, and you choose the pronoun that comports with who you are and/or wish to be in the game. Honestly this is a complete non-issue and I don't understand why it's such a topic of debate. Adding a "man" and "woman" tag in place of body or walk 1 and 2 doesn't do anything to functionally change that, it just makes the options available prescriptive instead of open.

(Usual disclaimer, not necessarily directed at OP incidentally: Transphobes, bigots, people equating trans people to mental illness, etc. will be blocked and reported and not engaged with. Do not attempt to engage with me, you won't receive one iota of attention. I don't care what your qualms with this system are. I'm simply explaining the logic behind why it exists and the flexibility in roleplaying it provides, which is the whole point. Beyond that, I do not care about your culture war and will not engage. Keep fishing if that describes you, you're barking up the wrong tree.)

bruh rly fell for the obvious troll bait and wrote a wall of text, lol

[Menagerie]

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

Originally posted by FembyCat:

#1 on top sellers on steam is this game
#3 is still Baldur's Gate 3.

You are demonstrably wrong in this context.

https://steamdb.info/stats/globaltopsellers/

While they may be incorrect within the context of this conversation, Budweiser and Target got screwed lately, so there is that.

They both went performative and then gave in when idiots attacked them, thus losing support from both sides.

That's not "going woke" that's "being idiots"

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by Aikido:

I will attempt just once to write a good faith, earnest reply to this topic of discussion in the context of game design and mechanics/systems. If it doesn't work, I'm going back to just blocking people and ignoring the topic entirely.

The customization options are functional, not prescriptively definitive. By making them generic rather than defining them, people can make a character look the way they want it to, without ascribing prescriptively definitive characteristics outside of aesthetics to them.

Adding a "man" and "woman" tag to the body types does nothing functionally to make them different from "type 1" and "type 2." Unlike pronouns, which actually impact how NPCs refer to you in-game, and allow you control over how you're addressed, no one in the game is looking at your body type choice and addressing you differently on that basis.

Imagine a scenario where someone happens to be stereotypically "feminine" coded in appearance according to society, but is a cis dude. As a youngster, that was me. I had a very cherubic face, and long hip length hair. and was also on the heavier side so I had a visibly large chest. I cannot tell you how many times people would call me miss, girl, etc.

If I was making myself at that age in this game, I'd need to choose visual options that comported with that. And if those visual options were labeled "woman," that would be a bit lame. By giving them generic labels, as well as pronoun options, it separates appearance from gender and allows people to truly create whatever character they want (for the most part, of course.)

The same is true of the walk. Using myself as another example, my gate is a little distinctive. I always choose the supposedly feminine coded walk in games, because that's accurate to how I move in real life. But again, I'm a cis dude. Choosing "woman" (as I often have to in, say, wrestling game CAWs) is, again, kind of lame.

And this is just me as a cis dude. It doesn't even touch on how these options also allow trans and nonbinary persons to create the characters they want (or just people who'd like to roleplay trans and nonbinary characters.) I think sometimes people forget that freedom to customize your character, how they look, how they move, how they emote, etc. is not just something for LGBTQ+ representation. It actually expands roleplay and creation freedom for everyone.

There is nothing in the game stopping anyone from playing as cis or traditionally gender coded characters. You choose the body type that comports with the appearance you want, and you choose the pronoun that comports with who you are and/or wish to be in the game. Honestly this is a complete non-issue and I don't understand why it's such a topic of debate. Adding a "man" and "woman" tag in place of body or walk 1 and 2 doesn't do anything to functionally change that, it just makes the options available prescriptive instead of open.

(Usual disclaimer, not necessarily directed at OP incidentally: Transphobes, bigots, people equating trans people to mental illness, talking about conspiracy theories, entirely optional game design elements being "forced down their throats," etc. will be blocked and reported and not engaged with. Do not attempt to engage with me, you won't receive one iota of attention. I don't care what your qualms with this system are. I'm simply explaining the logic behind why it exists and the flexibility in roleplaying it provides, which is the whole point. Beyond that, I do not care about your culture war, false equivalencies, or beliefs, and will not engage. Keep fishing if that describes you, you're barking up the wrong tree.)

So for the record, I am replying in sincerity and mainly from an observational standpoint. I just think it's weird to erase ANY form of expression.

I can assure you, I'm not on the side of the fence of "weaaaaaah it's being forced on us." No, that's silly and non-productive, since nobody is forced to play the game to begin with.

My main standpoint is curiosity, especially when I realized I couldn't just put "straight" when everyone else on Twitch can put their preferred way they swing.

I actually think that using "body type 1/body type 2" is a huge cop-out, because it has nothing to do with how anybody self identifies. I know trans folks. They don't say they are 1 or 2, they say they are male or female. I also know non-binary folks. They also don't say they are 1 or 2, they simply state they are non-binary. Same for straight folks, we identify as male or female, not 1 or 2.

So, I just think that notion of body type is weird and an inelegant way to address the situation. I mean, what are they going to do when they want to put someone that's non-binary, put a number zero? That's going to piss people off. Hence, why I proposed just leaving it blank and letting people form the body and write whatever they like. This way, nobody is erased, and everybody is free to express themselves in-game however they choose.

[Sunday Driver]

The "Body type" thing is a total scam and farce. We all know in reality it is MALE and FEMALE and based on biology for that selection as only one gets to show chest when they do this and that's because one is male and one is female and the censors don't let you show female chests, no matter what artificial labels or fraud you try to perform.

The developers themselves don't believe in it otherwise they'd have bare chests for all as there is no male or female in their game design.

[The Seraph of Tomorrow]

Well, there's this group of business elites (WEF) pushing what we call (ESG), and in the guidelines for (ESG) is the premise that there needs to be (Diversity) in the forefront of games to normalize behaviors and ways of life that are abnormal / advocated for by these globalist business leaders who are legislating what you see in games and media through the banks / money.

You want your answer, it's to ALWAYS follow the money and you'll find whose agenda is behind the wheel.

[Discord Mod ฅ^•ﻌ•^ฅ]

dont worry. this LCDTV filth is not here to stay. niether are game companys that cater to them.

[$$Billionaire Trash$$]

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

Originally posted by koosa_:

Male and female are dirty/offensive words now, but not for long, people are getting tired of all that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

While I see the trend, I also think, Body Type 1 and Body Type 2 doesn't cater to anybody. So if a person who is trans identifies as non-binary, then these body types make just as little sense as someone who identifies as male or female.

I don't see catering to anybody. I see erasure. They are catering to nobody.

Weren't you the people saying gender is made up, my gods, nothing pleases you people.

Originally posted by His Divine Shadow:

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

While they may be incorrect within the context of this conversation, Budweiser and Target got screwed lately, so there is that.

Budweiser lost 1% of their total, global revenue for two weeks. Target took a smaller hit than that. Kid Rock is still drinking bud light after his nonsense ad for crying out loud.

Of course he is, it's a grift from all these 'rightwing ideologues' to make easy money off these reactive, non-critical thinking people.

[Nanami]

Sex by genetic definition offends the left, and now the kids identify as whatever sexual morphology to rebel against their parents to be cool, so now to appease California legislation, we need to protect the snowflakes that disagree with 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years of genetic confirmation and identify as body type 1 or two instead of the real genders male (XY) and female (XX).

Its a clown world, but news is programming you to call republicans nazis to dissuade you from questioning WTF is going on.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by Sunday Driver:

The "Body type" thing is a total scam and farce. We all know in reality it is MALE and FEMALE and based on biology for that selection as only one gets to show chest when they do this and that's because one is male and one is female and the censors don't let you show female chests, no matter what artificial labels or fraud you try to perform.

The developers themselves don't believe in it otherwise they'd have bare chests for all as there is no male or female in their game design.

I'm not even coming from this standpoint, because even in biology there is variation in humans contrary to a 100% strict division between male and female, called inter-sexed. Even if you don't want to acknowledge anything regarding the trans population, you can see that there are super-butch women and super-effeminate men in society, as well as so much grey area. There's room for everyone to be there, by the way!

The reason I'm against "body type" is because again, I believe it to be a cop-out. Instead of acknowledging all the variation out there, ♥♥♥♥ it. You're 1, you're 2. It's very corporate, very by the numbers. I don't like it.

[$$Billionaire Trash$$]

Originally posted by Gorbles:

Sex by genetic definition offends the left, and now the kids identify as whatever sexual morphology to rebel against their parents to be cool, so now to appease California legislation, we need to protect the snowflakes that disagree with 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years of genetic confirmation and identify as body type 1 or two instead of the real genders male (XY) and female (XX).

Its a clown world, but news is programming you to call republicans nazis to dissuade you from questioning WFT is going on.

Well, no it offends the right as anything that exists outside of missionary for reproduction is an affront to the immature ideological group of people.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by A P O 1 1 0ⁿ:

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

While I see the trend, I also think, Body Type 1 and Body Type 2 doesn't cater to anybody. So if a person who is trans identifies as non-binary, then these body types make just as little sense as someone who identifies as male or female.

I don't see catering to anybody. I see erasure. They are catering to nobody.

Weren't you the people saying gender is made up, my gods, nothing pleases you people.

Originally posted by His Divine Shadow:

Budweiser lost 1% of their total, global revenue for two weeks. Target took a smaller hit than that. Kid Rock is still drinking bud light after his nonsense ad for crying out loud.

Of course he is, it's a grift from all these 'rightwing ideologues' to make easy money off these reactive, non-critical thinking people.

I'm a person, so I'm not "the people who...etc" And no, if you are paying some attention, you would have noticed that I identify as cis. I'm a straight male. No, this isn't an outrage post against the normal arguments. I'm stating plain as day that the companies that put body types are copping out and going corporate/by the numbers. Bring some nuance to the conversation, if you don't mind.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by A P O 1 1 0ⁿ:

Originally posted by Gorbles:

Sex by genetic definition offends the left, and now the kids identify as whatever sexual morphology to rebel against their parents to be cool, so now to appease California legislation, we need to protect the snowflakes that disagree with 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years of genetic confirmation and identify as body type 1 or two instead of the real genders male (XY) and female (XX).

Its a clown world, but news is programming you to call republicans nazis to dissuade you from questioning WFT is going on.

Well, no it offends the right as anything that exists outside of missionary for reproduction is an affront to the immature ideological group of people.

This is not a left or right issue. That's grossly off topic from what we are talking about.

[Nanami]

Originally posted by A P O 1 1 0ⁿ:

Originally posted by Tech-Priest:

Well, there's this group of business elites (WEF) pushing what we call (ESG), and in the guidelines for (ESG) is the premise that there needs to be (Diversity) in the forefront of games to normalize behaviors and ways of life that are abnormal / advocated for by these globalist business leaders who are legislating what you see in games and media through the banks / money.

You want your answer, it's to ALWAYS follow the money and you'll find whose agenda is behind the wheel.

Loon alert.

If you doubt ESG you are the loon. It is a well documented contingency. You are just not educated enough to understand it.

[Bishop]

Because it's not about giving people choices it's about forcing you to comply with their worldview.