Why 800p (or 16:10 Aspect Ratio) was a big mistake.

[Creepio]

Like any good discussion, it's best to list pros/cons/neutrals to avoid appearing too biased. So, I'll start by listing a few pros, and if anyone mentions any additional pros/cons in the comments, I'll likely update this top post to reflect that with credit attributed. 🙂

I've seen some discussions on Reddit become very heated over this topic, and actual insults are thrown around because people can't handle others having alternative opinions. Hopefully, that doesn't happen here. 🙂

Just so we're clear to avoid any confusion..

Below, when I say 16:9 AR Resolution, what I mean is any 16:9 Aspect Ratio (with a resolution of 1280x720, 1600x900, 1920x1080, 3840x2160, etc etc). Likewise, if I say 16:10 AR Resolution, what I mean is any 16:10 aspect ratio (with a resolution of 1280x800, 1600x1000, 1920x1200, 3840x2400, etc etc).

Pros of 800p (16:10 AR):

• More vertical resolution than 720p. More is simply better, right?
  
• More space for a taskbar and titlebar means your game can potentially have a higher resolution if you run it in windowed mode.
  
• Supported on most computer monitors, so hooking up the Steam Deck to non Valve approved USB-C hubs, and then a computer monitor is unlikely to be an issue.
  
• Cheaper?? Since 800p displays are likely mass produced and are more of a common tablet resolution?

Neutral:

• 16:10 was around long before 16:9, and therefore many older computer displays are 16:10.
  
• Steam Deck shipping with a 16:10 display is unlikely to influence other game developers and hardware manufacturers to switch to this new aspect ratio as a default, so it's likely to continue being a niche aspect ratio.

Cons of 800p (16:10 AR):

• Uncommon aspect ratio (according to Steam Charts, 66% of all Steam users use 1920x1080, which is 16:9.
  
• Hooking up the Steam Deck to a TV using non Valve approved USB-C hubs can be problematic, as the TV will (sometimes) refuse to display the Steam Deck entirely. Some TVs are very stubborn about this, show the signal first, then fail to show the signal, with no way to undo this.
  
• Developing a controller layout with Cursor Positions is dependent upon the aspect ratio of your display, which means a Steam Controller Layout developed on a 16:9 computer monitor will have to be updated to work on a 16:10 Steam Deck display.
  
• 720p display is more expensive? Since 720p displays are likely to be less mass produced since it's an uncommon tablet resolution?
  
• Game developers have to take into account this aspect ratio so that the game's UI doesn't chop off the top/bottom with black bars. This is actually very common.

My Personal Thoughts:

Valve gathers significant information from hardware surveys. They likely already know that 800p is an uncommon resolution, yet they chose to go with this resolution regardless. Their decision to do so is likely what caused their Steam Dock to get delayed, as they didn't have enough software solutions in place to avoid TV compatibility issues. Valve is being very quiet about this, so I imagine they are aware of the issue, but don't want to talk about it. In other words, I don't think Valve had any significant reason to go 800p other than cost related reasons, which begs the question, how expensive is a 720p display compared to an 800p one? $5 extra per device? $25 extra per device? $100 extra per device? Whatever the case, it would be nice to know so that we can have a better idea of why Valve chose an uncommon resolution. 🙂

We could all be enjoying hooking up our Steam Decks to TVs right now, but instead, we have to experiment with sketchy brand USB-C hubs that may or may not work properly. From my experience, I purchased a USB-C hub that ticked all of the boxes, and it gave me nothing but issues (TV not showing any picture what-so-ever, and audio glitching out so badly that it was effectively worthless 😞).

What can be done about this?

• The Steam Deck should offer you the ability to set your "gaming mode" default resolution to 720p, so that when you plug your Steam Deck up to a TV, it's more likely to "just work" as opposed to fail because the TV simply doesn't support an oddball resolution like 800p.
  
• Future Steam Deck Models should ship with a 16:9 AR display rather than a 16:10 AR one, or at the very least, default to a 16:9 AR resolution rather than a 16:10 AR one to avoid compatibility issues with TVs.
  
• Controller layouts that were developed for 16:10 aspect ratio should have their cursor positions scaled down vertically when porting to a 16:9 display, and vice versa. The fact that the Steam doesn't already do this is interesting. At the very least, the Steam Controller layout should keep track of the user's aspect ratio at the time of exporting, and then prompt the user with scaling options when importing the steam controller to a display with a different aspect ratio.

Anyway, I look forward to what the Steam community thinks about this. Do you think 800p was a mistake, or do you think Valve is setting a new (albeit old) standard?

[AceHercules1196]

Originally posted by Creepio:

Like any good discussion, it's best to list pros/cons/neutrals to avoid appearing too biased. So, I'll start by listing a few pros, and if anyone mentions any additional pros/cons in the comments, I'll likely update this top post to reflect that with credit attributed. 🙂

I've seen some discussions on Reddit become very heated over this topic, and actual insults are thrown around because people can't handle others having alternative opinions. Hopefully, that doesn't happen here. 🙂

Just so we're clear to avoid any confusion..

Below, when I say 16:9 AR Resolution, what I mean is any 16:9 Aspect Ratio (with a resolution of 1280x720, 1600x900, 1920x1080, 3840x2160, etc etc). Likewise, if I say 16:10 AR Resolution, what I mean is any 16:10 aspect ratio (with a resolution of 1280x800, 1600x1000, 1920x1200, 3840x2400, etc etc).

Pros of 800p (16:10 AR):

• More vertical resolution than 720p. More is simply better, right?
  
• More space for a taskbar and titlebar means your game can potentially have a higher resolution if you run it in windowed mode.
  
• Supported on most computer monitors, so hooking up the Steam Deck to non Valve approved USB-C hubs, and then a computer monitor is unlikely to be an issue.
  
• Cheaper?? Since 800p displays are likely mass produced and are more of a common tablet resolution?

Neutral:

• 16:10 was around long before 16:9, and therefore many older computer displays are 16:10.
  
• Steam Deck shipping with a 16:10 display is unlikely to influence other game developers and hardware manufacturers to switch to this new aspect ratio as a default, so it's likely to continue being a niche aspect ratio.

Cons of 800p (16:10 AR):

• Uncommon aspect ratio (according to Steam Charts, 66% of all Steam users use 1920x1080, which is 16:9.
  
• Hooking up the Steam Deck to a TV using non Valve approved USB-C hubs can be problematic, as the TV will (sometimes) refuse to display the Steam Deck entirely. Some TVs are very stubborn about this, show the signal first, then fail to show the signal, with no way to undo this.
  
• Developing a controller layout with Cursor Positions is dependent upon the aspect ratio of your display, which means a Steam Controller Layout developed on a 16:9 computer monitor will have to be updated to work on a 16:10 Steam Deck display.
  
• More expensive? Since 720p displays are likely to be less mass produced since it's an uncommon tablet resolution?
  
• Game developers have to take into account this aspect ratio so that the game's UI doesn't chop off the top/bottom with black bars. This is actually very common.

My Personal Thoughts:

Valve gathers significant information from hardware surveys. They likely already know that 800p is an uncommon resolution, yet they chose to go with this resolution regardless. Their decision to do so is likely what caused their Steam Dock to get delayed, as they didn't have enough software solutions in place to avoid TV compatibility issues. Valve is being very quiet about this, so I imagine they are aware of the issue, but don't want to talk about it. In other words, I don't think Valve had any significant reason to go 800p other than cost related reasons, which begs the question, how expensive is a 720p display compared to an 800p one? $5 extra per device? $25 extra per device? $100 extra per device? Whatever the case, it would be nice to know so that we can have a better idea of why Valve chose an uncommon resolution. 🙂

We could all be enjoying hooking up our Steam Decks to TVs right now, but instead, we have to experiment with sketchy brand USB-C hubs that may or may not work properly. From my experience, I purchased a USB-C hub that ticked all of the boxes, and it gave me nothing but issues (TV not showing any picture what-so-ever, and audio glitching out so badly that it was effectively worthless 😞).

What can be done about this?

• The Steam Deck should offer you the ability to set your "gaming mode" default resolution to 720p, so that when you plug your Steam Deck up to a TV, it's more likely to "just work" as opposed to fail because the TV simply doesn't support an oddball resolution like 800p.
  
• Future Steam Deck Models should ship with a 16:9 AR display rather than a 16:10 AR one, or at the very least, default to a 16:9 AR resolution rather than a 16:10 AR one to avoid compatibility issues with TVs.
  
• Controller layouts that were developed for 16:10 aspect ratio should have their cursor positions scaled down vertically when porting to a 16:9 display, and vice versa. The fact that the Steam doesn't already do this is interesting. At the very least, the Steam Controller layout should keep track of the user's aspect ratio at the time of exporting, and then prompt the user with scaling options when importing the steam controller to a display with a different aspect ratio.

Anyway, I look forward to what the Steam community thinks about this. Do you think 800p was a mistake, or do you think Valve is setting a new (albeit old) standard?

I think 800p is fine and in my opinion anyone that thinks that it is a mistake clearly should think that using Linux instead of windows was a mistake for some of the same reason’s that you and some other people think 800p was a mistake not trying to be rude or anything it’s just my opinion

[WarnerCK]

Originally posted by Creepio:

Steam Deck shipping with a 16:10 display is unlikely to influence other game developers and hardware manufacturers to switch to this new aspect ratio as a default, so it's likely to continue being a niche aspect ratio.

Hardware manufacturers have already switched back to using 16:10, or started using 3:2. 16:9 was always worse, but was cheap (because of TV manufacturing economies of scale), and only existed at all as a compromise between 4:3 and cinema ratios.

The better game developers have always used the aspect ratio of the display being used. The ones that only contemplated TVs were half-arsing it.

[Creepio]

Originally posted by Corey:

I think 800p is fine and in my opinion anyone that thinks that it is a mistake clearly should think that using Linux instead of windows was a mistake for some of the same reason’s that you and some other people think 800p was a mistake not trying to be rude or anything it’s just my opinion

I think it was pretty well established that Valve chose to go with Linux over Windows to push Linux which is due to Microsoft's desire to make Windows a "walled garden". i.e. To confine apps/games to their Microsoft Store, and cause Valve to have to give a percentage of profits to Microsoft. This could also cause people to opt for Microsoft's own Store over Steam due to ease of access/simplicity. Luckily, this has never happened, but I think years ago, it was a big concern. I know Tim Sweeney (founder and CEO of Epic Games) was not a big fan of Microsoft because it posed a threat to Epic's future plans. Valve probably considered Microsoft an enemy (and perhaps still does). Valve has been trying to push Linux for years to avoid potential issues with Microsoft.

Originally posted by Arstechnica:

Shipping on Linux cuts manufacturing costs for Steam, insulates the company from competition with the Microsoft Store on Windows, and avoids exposing Steam Deck players to the world's premiere malware ecosystem—which also runs on Windows.

Source: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/08/valves-upcoming-steam-deck-will-be-based-on-arch-linux-not-debian/

Additionally, Valve wants to avoid having to charge extra money just to ship Steam Deck's (originally, Steam machines) with a copy of Windows on it. Not to mention, the possibility of having to pay Microsoft even more money for (pick any reason out of a hat).

Also, Valve has more direct influence over Steam OS than it does Microsoft Windows. So, being able to boot into a Gaming Mode is possible with Linux, but Valve would've had to cooperate with Microsoft to enable such a feature, and Microsoft is unlikely to care about such a feature.

It's pretty clear that, Microsoft Windows is bloated, bogged down, privacy invading, and is only getting worse as time goes on. Linux is the answer to that.

The reasons to go with Linux over Windows are so numerous and clearly advantageous, I don't think it's fair to equate Linux vs Windows to 800p vs 720p. But hey, I respect your opinion here. 🙂

[AceHercules1196]

Originally posted by Creepio:

Originally posted by Corey:

I think 800p is fine and in my opinion anyone that thinks that it is a mistake clearly should think that using Linux instead of windows was a mistake for some of the same reason’s that you and some other people think 800p was a mistake not trying to be rude or anything it’s just my opinion

I think it was pretty well established that the reason Valve chose to go with Linux over Windows is that, they have a love/hate relationship with Microsoft. They want to avoid having to charge extra money just to ship Steam Deck's (originally, Steam machines) with a copy of Windows on it. Not to mention, the possibility of having to pay Microsoft even more money for (pick any reason out of a hat).

Additionally, Valve probably considered Microsoft an enemy (and perhaps still does) because of their desire to confine apps/games to their Microsoft Store, and therefore causing people to opt for their own Store over Steam due to ease of access/simplicity. Luckily, this has never happened, but I think years ago, it was a big concern. I know Tim Sweeney (founder and CEO of Epic Games) was not a big fan of Microsoft because it posed a threat to Epic's future plans.

Also, Valve has more direct influence over Steam OS than it does Microsoft Windows. So, being able to boot into a Gaming Mode is possible with Linux, but Valve would've had to cooperate with Microsoft to enable such a feature, and Microsoft is unlikely to care about such a feature.

It's pretty clear that, Microsoft Windows is bloated, bogged down, privacy invading, and is only getting worse as time goes on. Linux is the answer to that.

The reasons to go with Linux over Windows are so numerous and clearly advantageous, I don't think it's fair to equate Linux vs Windows to 800p vs 720p. But hey, I respect your opinion here. 🙂

The only reason why I was comparing the 16:10 aspect ratio display to Linux is because they are both not that common and some games don’t support it at all

[Creepio]

Originally posted by Corey:

The only reason why I was comparing the 16:10 aspect ratio display to Linux is because they are both not that common and some games don’t support it at all

But I pretty much figured that's what you were meaning to say. I chose to elaborate on why I think those reasons don't really compare. 🙂 Anyway, I need to break and do other things for the day.

[Clone303]

it's fine, you know the bigger resolution eat more power and already die fast

[karmazyn1]

I like indie games on SD but some games wont support 800p, streaming is also impossible. Picture is cropped bro.

[Bee🐝]

Originally posted by Creepio:

Originally posted by Corey:

I think 800p is fine and in my opinion anyone that thinks that it is a mistake clearly should think that using Linux instead of windows was a mistake for some of the same reason’s that you and some other people think 800p was a mistake not trying to be rude or anything it’s just my opinion

I think it was pretty well established that the reason Valve chose to go with Linux over Windows is that, they have a love/hate relationship with Microsoft. They want to avoid having to charge extra money just to ship Steam Deck's (originally, Steam machines) with a copy of Windows on it. Not to mention, the possibility of having to pay Microsoft even more money for (pick any reason out of a hat).

Additionally, Valve probably considered Microsoft an enemy (and perhaps still does) because of their desire to confine apps/games to their Microsoft Store, and therefore causing people to opt for their own Store over Steam due to ease of access/simplicity. Luckily, this has never happened, but I think years ago, it was a big concern. I know Tim Sweeney (founder and CEO of Epic Games) was not a big fan of Microsoft because it posed a threat to Epic's future plans.

Also, Valve has more direct influence over Steam OS than it does Microsoft Windows. So, being able to boot into a Gaming Mode is possible with Linux, but Valve would've had to cooperate with Microsoft to enable such a feature, and Microsoft is unlikely to care about such a feature.

It's pretty clear that, Microsoft Windows is bloated, bogged down, privacy invading, and is only getting worse as time goes on. Linux is the answer to that.

The reasons to go with Linux over Windows are so numerous and clearly advantageous, I don't think it's fair to equate Linux vs Windows to 800p vs 720p. But hey, I respect your opinion here. 🙂

Just so we’re clear, because this keeps coming up in threads - the Microsoft/Valve enemy thing is like so out of date.

They need each other - they have a symbiotic relationship. Engineers from both Microsoft and Valve have been collaborating on a number of aspects of the Steam Deck. Valve’s been active in getting all the Win drivers uploaded with minimal fuss, while the Microsoft side helped get Gamepass and streaming up and running. Heck, they wrote a full official guide for it and the Valve team thank them.

Also, Phil Spencer tweeted about the Deck like an infatuated school boy.

They went Linux because it’s a better choice licensing wise, it’s far more compact and Proton makes it a workable option, not because they have some silly ancient beef about the Microsoft store.

Edit: Actually, has the Microsoft store ever been relevant? They aren’t Apple who can lockdown their infrastructure, PC people can grab programs from literally anywhere.

[Creepio]

Very good points. 👍

[invision2212]

the resolution is fine when the game can use it, but ive noticed quite a few games only support 720p so theres thin black bars on the top/bottom. it doesnt bother me as i normally play the deck in a dark room at night so i never notice the black bars.

[imbrock]

I think less than a quarter of the games I've tried to play have not supported 16:10 though so far its been pretty good. The only one I can specifically call to mind that hasn't supported the resolution is Death Stranding Directors Cut, I feel like I've seen a few others but their names aren't jumping out at me right now.

As for the issues with tvs, that is unfortunate but I'd have to bet that playing on a TV isn't the usual method most people are using the steam decks for. That being said I don't doubt that valve will sort those issues out down the road as they get main portable usage polished up.

Really I'd rather have the bit of extra pixel density over a more standard aspect ratio.

[@R+5]

Originally posted by Corey:

I think 800p is fine and in my opinion anyone that thinks that it is a mistake clearly should think that using Linux instead of windows was a mistake for some of the same reason’s that you and some other people think 800p was a mistake not trying to be rude or anything it’s just my opinion

one thing doesnt relate to the other:
one thing is how people feel (and misunderstand) a different os, and another is how hardware affects the experience of using software.

i agree with op that the aspect ratio in the screen for the deck was a mistake, not that its 800p. most games only offer screen resolutions with a 16:9 aspect ratio, so if you need or want to use a 16:10 aspect ratio screen, you will have to choose between stretching the video, or having black bars.

Neither are nice: black bars make to many users feel like wasted space, and stretching can make things a bit blurry.

imo a future version of the deck will offer a better experience with a screen with 16:9 aspect ratio (which is and has been the most common for more than 10 years)

Originally posted by imbrock:

Really I'd rather have the bit of extra pixel density over a more standard aspect ratio.

you can have both:
you can have the same "pixel density" in a 16:9 screen than a 16:10 screen. the only difference is that one will be a bit smaller than the other.

theres no point in having a little of extra space in a screen, if most of the time you are going to use it to play games that will need black bars or stretching. Also a little smaller screen could actually help make the deck more portable.

[@R+5]

Originally posted by Bee:

Just so we’re clear, because this keeps coming up in threads - the Microsoft/Valve enemy thing is like so out of date.

They need each other - they have a symbiotic relationship.

A symbiotic relation isnt one thats predatorial.

the relation that microsoft has with competing businesses is strictly predatorial:
if they can take over, they usually try to sabotage them (even the simpsons include this in a episode many years ago).

this is the relation microsoft has with linux. Since a few years they have to accept that even if linux sometimes evolves like a turtle (at least in relation to the needs of common users, rather than servers), they cant stop it, so they have tried to look "less menacing" and "friendlier", which is all bs. you know the phrase "if you cant destroy them, join them"? you could add to it "or pretend that you do, until you can destroy them".

The reason valve began to work in steam os many years ago was to keep microsoft attempts to control their enviroment and evolution away, to have the freedom of offering something new that they wouldnt be able under the wing of microsoft.

think about them as countries: microsoft was a big empire, and valve was like a small country with a new attractive resource. rather than becoming a vassal state, they did what they could to keep their autonomy from the empire, and reduce as much as possible their influence in their own territory.

Dont confuse engineers and people, with the nature of the brand and businesses: what "grunts" and "pawns" do, rarely reflects what their "owners" and "lords" believe.

Just like not all nazis were the cartoonish minions that movies portray, doesnt change that the nazi system was f-up; same with commies, and many religions: avoid confusing the individuals with their group. big businesses, corporations, etc, will inevitably have their dark side, and when lead and or owned by people like gates that constantly plays politics, and tries to hijack economies, you shouldnt expect "good partnerships" with rivals and businesses that attempt to offer a different model.

Valve may not be a saint, but at least is supporting a os that gives users the choice to have control over their files, which is the complete opposite of what microsoft and apple do.

[AceHercules1196]

Originally posted by @R+5:

Originally posted by Bee:

Just so we’re clear, because this keeps coming up in threads - the Microsoft/Valve enemy thing is like so out of date.

They need each other - they have a symbiotic relationship.

A symbiotic relation isnt one thats predatorial.

the relation that microsoft has with competing businesses is strictly predatorial:
if they can take over, they usually tried to sabotage them. this is the relation microsoft has with linux. Since a few years they have to accept that even if linux sometimes evolves like a turtle (at least in relation to the needs of common users, rather than servers), they cant stop it, so they have tried to look "less menacing" and "friendlier", which is all bs.

The reason valve began to work in steam os many years ago was to keep microsoft attempts to control their enviroment and evolution away, to have the freedom of offering something new that they wouldnt be able under the wing of microsoft.

think about them as countries: microsoft was a big empire, and valve was like a small country with a new attractive resource. rather than becoming a vassal state, they did what they could to keep their autonomy from the empire, and reduce as much as possible their influence in their own territory.

Dont confuse engineers and people, with the nature of the brand and businesses: what "grunts" and "pawns" do, rarely reflects what their "owners" and "lords" believe.

Just like not all nazis were the cartoonish minions that movies portray, doesnt change that the nazi system was f-up; same with commies, and many religions: avoid confusing the individuals with their group. big businesses, corporations, etc, will inevitably have their dark side, and when lead and or owned by people like gates that constantly plays politics, and tries to hijack economies, you shouldnt expect "good partnerships" with rivals and businesses that attempt to offer a different model.

Valve may not be a saint, but at least is supporting a os that gives users the choice to have control over their files, which is the complete opposite of what microsoft and apple do.

I don’t know if anyone would agree with me but I think steamOS is way better than windows dumpster fire edition oh sorry I meant windows 11

[Creepio]

Originally posted by Corey:

I don’t know if anyone would agree with me but I think steamOS is way better than windows dumpster fire edition oh sorry I meant windows 11

Steam OS is garbage. Steam OS 3 on the other hand, is magnificent. But, I'm pretty sure you meant Steam OS 3. 🙂