The Update: Changes for the sake of changes

[Wanderhoof]

Some of what is new in the current patch is very welcome and definitely amps the excitement from the get-go. This would include the new opening cut-scenes and the more immersive starting area.

But, then there are so many changes that are just plain baffling if not outright frustrating and annoying.

- Some times I go to the Device Fabricator to make things, sometimes I use my Suit Printer. This creates a lot of back-and-forth busywork, where as before all your basic crafting needs were met through the Fabricator. Why the need now for extra menus and extra clicking about?

- Speaking of the the FABRICATOR, why are we suddenly renaming things? Fabricator to Device Fabricator? Then instead of a Suit Fabricator, it's a Suit Printer.

- And, as if adding more words weren't enough, let's cram more items, more blueprints, more gear into the starting area, too! I'm not against generosity, but the older versions of the game were more of a slow burn. You started with some very, very basic items, a small selection of what you could do, and then you explored, discovered, and learned the rest in a slow, methodical, and organic process that really made you not only learn and understand each things as you discovered it and its function, but also how it built upon the things that came before and what it would next lead to. Now, I already have blueprints for a 'Furniture Fabricator' from the very start! (Also, again with the naming; How do you determine where to draw the line at separating 'fabricators'? It begins to sound weird very quickly, saying this fabricator and that fabricator and so on.)

- I have always loved the slow ticking to the biological necessities clock within FS. It organically necessitated that I pump my breaks, take regular breaks from exploring, and eat, drink, rest, and plan ahead. In the current beginning it seems a bit forced, a bit artificially triggered. I complete a to-do list here and a to-do list there, and suddenly thirst is in the red. I take care of my thirst and then my hunger is in the red. It just seemed incredibly over-scripted. And then, regardless of how long it took me to gather the necessary resources, those meters never seemed to drop below a certain point. That completely negated both immersion and urgency. Survival suddenly felt less like an exciting life-or-death struggle against the odds and more like a busywork checklist.

- WHY CAN'T I ATTACH MY ENGINE ANYWHERE OUTSIDE LIKE I USED TO BE ABLE TO? WHY MUST IT GO ON A CATWALK?

- There is more exposition dump in the first 5 minutes of this game view data cards than I would have seen in 5 hours of hard exploring in the older versions. Again, so much is front-loaded, it's too much at once without the sense of having truly discovered or earned it.

I am not all doom and gloom. I love FS. I am just disheartened at some of the current direction of the game, and if others feel likewise, who knows? Maybe they will revert course even just a bit.

[deonb]

Indeed, I did like the new stuff, but I am in total agreement with the "engines on catwalks, turbines on walls" sort of limits. Also, the Fabricator being split into two to just enhance grind is totally correct. I hate in now in crafting games they add these two tier systems..."you need basics to make a combined component, which has to be done in a different builder"...just give us the "fabricator makes the component from the basics if they are missing" all in one

[Vela Darney]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the engines on catwalks thing, either. I prefer the old way where you could just stick them to a wall. This kinda-sorta messes up my entire airship design ...

I do love that we have a hand extractor right from the start, though. And I like the metal collector, too.

[littlerobotfish]

Originally posted by Wanderhoof:

- Some times I go to the Device Fabricator to make things, sometimes I use my Suit Printer. This creates a lot of back-and-forth busywork, where as before all your basic crafting needs were met through the Fabricator. Why the need now for extra menus and extra clicking about?

I imagine this is so that if you, say, run out of things like crossbow bolts or batteries while out exploring, you can just extract materials from the environment and craft them right there instead of having to run all the way back to your ship. Same reason all the crafting materials were moved to the suit printer as well I’d wager, so you’d have access to the components you’d need for crafting basic items(e.g. electric elements for making batteries)

- WHY CAN'T I ATTACH MY ENGINE ANYWHERE OUTSIDE LIKE I USED TO BE ABLE TO? WHY MUST IT GO ON A CATWALK?

The basic engine needs catwalks. The advanced engine can be attached anywhere like before. Devs mentioned on Discord that this was to further differentiate them. You can also start your game with the Legacy ship building ruleset and it will be as it was before, though the devs mentioned this would eventually be going away.

[-₪EPIC₪- Fail]

They should have left the basic stuff in the fabricator... The suit can do the basic stuff too but have it take longer or have crappy conversion rates. The suit doing things instantly is a nice but, jarring compared to how long it takes the fabricator to do things.

[FFH_Greg]

Originally posted by Wanderhoof:

Some of what is new in the current patch is very welcome and definitely amps the excitement from the get-go. This would include the new opening cut-scenes and the more immersive starting area.

But, then there are so many changes that are just plain baffling if not outright frustrating and annoying.

- Some times I go to the Device Fabricator to make things, sometimes I use my Suit Printer. This creates a lot of back-and-forth busywork, where as before all your basic crafting needs were met through the Fabricator. Why the need now for extra menus and extra clicking about?

- Speaking of the the FABRICATOR, why are we suddenly renaming things? Fabricator to Device Fabricator? Then instead of a Suit Fabricator, it's a Suit Printer.

- And, as if adding more words weren't enough, let's cram more items, more blueprints, more gear into the starting area, too! I'm not against generosity, but the older versions of the game were more of a slow burn. You started with some very, very basic items, a small selection of what you could do, and then you explored, discovered, and learned the rest in a slow, methodical, and organic process that really made you not only learn and understand each things as you discovered it and its function, but also how it built upon the things that came before and what it would next lead to. Now, I already have blueprints for a 'Furniture Fabricator' from the very start! (Also, again with the naming; How do you determine where to draw the line at separating 'fabricators'? It begins to sound weird very quickly, saying this fabricator and that fabricator and so on.)

- I have always loved the slow ticking to the biological necessities clock within FS. It organically necessitated that I pump my breaks, take regular breaks from exploring, and eat, drink, rest, and plan ahead. In the current beginning it seems a bit forced, a bit artificially triggered. I complete a to-do list here and a to-do list there, and suddenly thirst is in the red. I take care of my thirst and then my hunger is in the red. It just seemed incredibly over-scripted. And then, regardless of how long it took me to gather the necessary resources, those meters never seemed to drop below a certain point. That completely negated both immersion and urgency. Survival suddenly felt less like an exciting life-or-death struggle against the odds and more like a busywork checklist.

- WHY CAN'T I ATTACH MY ENGINE ANYWHERE OUTSIDE LIKE I USED TO BE ABLE TO? WHY MUST IT GO ON A CATWALK?

- There is more exposition dump in the first 5 minutes of this game view data cards than I would have seen in 5 hours of hard exploring in the older versions. Again, so much is front-loaded, it's too much at once without the sense of having truly discovered or earned it.

I am not all doom and gloom. I love FS. I am just disheartened at some of the current direction of the game, and if others feel likewise, who knows? Maybe they will revert course even just a bit.

Hi Wanderhoof,

The core game loop and progression has been reworked. This was done for a few reasons, but it mainly stems from player feedback about the previous loop and to make the game translate better to a co-op experience while maintaining a fun single-player experience.

We've only renamed the Fabricator and Ship Workstation. The suit printer never existed before this update so there has been no renaming here. But maybe it should be called Suit Fabricator so its consistent with the other naming conventions haha!

Crafting directly from your suit is necessary only for basic tools. We need to explore having all options available on the fabricator but with the new wloop, suit printing is a must. Especially considering where we're heading, it could be possible to lose the machines on the interior of your airship! It also makes sense when playing in co-op so you don't have 4 scientists fighting over 1 fabricator.

Regarding eating and drinking, all we have done here is teach players how to get clean water and cooked food from the start of the game in the tutorial. We have removed the canned food and water from this location too. The bars only get activated once you do that section of the tutorial so players dont die from thirst or hunger in the tutorial. After the tutorial, they food and water works the same as always.

Aside of the intro cutscene, all of the lore in the starting area is the same as before, maybe you missed them last time?

And regarding the catwalk/engines. This has been done to make upgrades more meaningful. The upgraded versions have the freedom to be placed anywhere giving more freedom. However if you dont like this change, you can select Legacy Building when starting a new game that follows the old building ruleset.

So yes, these aren't changes we've made just for the sake of it, there is a big purpose to them. We understand that it might have been confusing to returning players, the most important thing before playing is to forget everything you thought you knew about Forever Skies. If you try to play through the game and its objectives while holding onto previous knowledge and expecting the game to work the same as before, it could leave you at a disadvantage.

[Arkhne]

I agree with pretty much everything in the OP, and the dev reply certainly doesn't do anything to reassure.

[FFH_Greg]

Originally posted by Vela Darney:

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the engines on catwalks thing, either. I prefer the old way where you could just stick them to a wall. This kinda-sorta messes up my entire airship design ...

I do love that we have a hand extractor right from the start, though. And I like the metal collector, too.

When you unlock the upgraded version of the engine, they can be placed anywhere :)

[Stossgebet]

No ones even touched on, how the plumbing still has many issues as well.

[Fenris]

For my part, the progression feels a bit slower, but smoother and for the most part more enjoyable. I like the larger locations, the busier world, the rechargable hand extractor, and the buildable batteries. It's going to be a while before I can claim I've properly tested through everything.

I am a bit surprised with how painful not having default access to the ladder room would be to my preferred building approach. Having to suit print parts and then build complex devices through the larger fabricator machines is a bit jarring and I'm hoping there's a point where we upgrade to a placed machine that lets us build components instead of always having to toggle screens between the suit printer and other things.

Several of the new locations have some glitches with floating debris and object placement (like a ladder randomly floating in the air at one radio tower). I'm not in a good place to screenshot and do bug reports and won't be for a while, but I'll eventually follow up on that if someone else does not beat me to it first.

[-₪EPIC₪- Fail]

Having spent hours now on this update... I dislike having to swap back and forth so much.

[Akari_Enderwolf]

my main complaint was the engines, but knowing the advanced ones are placable anywhre I'm not as annoyed now.

I am still hoping that later game I can more easily mass produce some of the intermediate resources, as going one by one in the suit fabricator feels weird to me.

I do agree on the point about fabricator vs printer, they should all be called fabricators. the suit one being named different is just unnessicarry, and creates some confusion.

[DragynDance]

I just don't udnerstand why you can't have the suit fabricator recipes also in the device fabricator, so I don't constantly have to back out of the fabricator, go to my suit fabricator, craft soem stuff, back out of the suit fabricator go back to device fabricator check the recipe again, back out of the device fabricator, go into the suit fabricator make more items, back out of the suit fabricator, etc. Just adding a lot of tedium to hide your threadbare game design.

[Wanderhoof]

Originally posted by FFH_Greg:

Originally posted by Wanderhoof:

Some of what is new in the current patch is very welcome and definitely amps the excitement from the get-go. This would include the new opening cut-scenes and the more immersive starting area.

But, then there are so many changes that are just plain baffling if not outright frustrating and annoying.

- Some times I go to the Device Fabricator to make things, sometimes I use my Suit Printer. This creates a lot of back-and-forth busywork, where as before all your basic crafting needs were met through the Fabricator. Why the need now for extra menus and extra clicking about?

- Speaking of the the FABRICATOR, why are we suddenly renaming things? Fabricator to Device Fabricator? Then instead of a Suit Fabricator, it's a Suit Printer.

- And, as if adding more words weren't enough, let's cram more items, more blueprints, more gear into the starting area, too! I'm not against generosity, but the older versions of the game were more of a slow burn. You started with some very, very basic items, a small selection of what you could do, and then you explored, discovered, and learned the rest in a slow, methodical, and organic process that really made you not only learn and understand each things as you discovered it and its function, but also how it built upon the things that came before and what it would next lead to. Now, I already have blueprints for a 'Furniture Fabricator' from the very start! (Also, again with the naming; How do you determine where to draw the line at separating 'fabricators'? It begins to sound weird very quickly, saying this fabricator and that fabricator and so on.)

- I have always loved the slow ticking to the biological necessities clock within FS. It organically necessitated that I pump my breaks, take regular breaks from exploring, and eat, drink, rest, and plan ahead. In the current beginning it seems a bit forced, a bit artificially triggered. I complete a to-do list here and a to-do list there, and suddenly thirst is in the red. I take care of my thirst and then my hunger is in the red. It just seemed incredibly over-scripted. And then, regardless of how long it took me to gather the necessary resources, those meters never seemed to drop below a certain point. That completely negated both immersion and urgency. Survival suddenly felt less like an exciting life-or-death struggle against the odds and more like a busywork checklist.

- WHY CAN'T I ATTACH MY ENGINE ANYWHERE OUTSIDE LIKE I USED TO BE ABLE TO? WHY MUST IT GO ON A CATWALK?

- There is more exposition dump in the first 5 minutes of this game view data cards than I would have seen in 5 hours of hard exploring in the older versions. Again, so much is front-loaded, it's too much at once without the sense of having truly discovered or earned it.

I am not all doom and gloom. I love FS. I am just disheartened at some of the current direction of the game, and if others feel likewise, who knows? Maybe they will revert course even just a bit.

Hi Wanderhoof,

The core game loop and progression has been reworked. This was done for a few reasons, but it mainly stems from player feedback about the previous loop and to make the game translate better to a co-op experience while maintaining a fun single-player experience.

We've only renamed the Fabricator and Ship Workstation. The suit printer never existed before this update so there has been no renaming here. But maybe it should be called Suit Fabricator so its consistent with the other naming conventions haha!

Crafting directly from your suit is necessary only for basic tools. We need to explore having all options available on the fabricator but with the new wloop, suit printing is a must. Especially considering where we're heading, it could be possible to lose the machines on the interior of your airship! It also makes sense when playing in co-op so you don't have 4 scientists fighting over 1 fabricator.

Regarding eating and drinking, all we have done here is teach players how to get clean water and cooked food from the start of the game in the tutorial. We have removed the canned food and water from this location too. The bars only get activated once you do that section of the tutorial so players dont die from thirst or hunger in the tutorial. After the tutorial, they food and water works the same as always.

Aside of the intro cutscene, all of the lore in the starting area is the same as before, maybe you missed them last time?

And regarding the catwalk/engines. This has been done to make upgrades more meaningful. The upgraded versions have the freedom to be placed anywhere giving more freedom. However if you dont like this change, you can select Legacy Building when starting a new game that follows the old building ruleset.

So yes, these aren't changes we've made just for the sake of it, there is a big purpose to them. We understand that it might have been confusing to returning players, the most important thing before playing is to forget everything you thought you knew about Forever Skies. If you try to play through the game and its objectives while holding onto previous knowledge and expecting the game to work the same as before, it could leave you at a disadvantage.

Thank you for your in depth reply. It is truly appreciated.

I want to, first, follow up my initial post by saying that I do not hate Forever Skies. In fact, quite the opposite. This game has been a soothing vibe and refuge on more than one occasion. I would say my appreciation for Forever Skies probably fueled the vehemence of my frustrations.

Which leads me to the second thing I would like to say: I apologize if I was too critical, too harsh, and/or misguided in my critiques of the current patch. In truth, some of that vehemence is tongue-in-cheek hyperbole. That said, if it was more stinging than humorous, that fault lays with me and how I crafted my initial post.

Following up on that, I may have missed some early content in older versions by playing on saves that had me past the initial starting area, and thus I may have be unaware of updates along the way that added the lore, recipes, and whatnot that appeared added to me. For that gap in my knowledge, I apologize.

Having read your reply through, I can say that I do understand - at least in part - the changes you are aiming for and the reasons why. I laud the fact that Forever Skies continues to receive such very active and loving development. Honestly, I want all of my friends who are into the survival-crafting genre to buy Forever Skies and give it a try. It has a truly unique world and set of mechanics to explore and enjoy, and is one of the best entries in that increasingly crowded field.

Respectfully, I still do not like some of the changes made and question the logic behind them. I think, perhaps, it comes down to the idea (or fear!) of, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" I'm old (and cranky? heh), and more than once I have seen a wonderful game 'over-tuned' or changed in such a way that it broke the (hard to describe) magic of a game or (the easy to nitpick) functionality of the game.

I am deeply appreciative of the fact that you are actually taking into account the difference in play between solo and multiplayer. Though I am still not sure the changes you made to account for that are the changes I would have liked to see, the fact that you are trying to make adjustments for it is forward thinking and smart. In that regard, I am 100% in the wrong in having said that changes were made for the sake of making changes. It would have been better for me to have simply said that I do not understand or do not like said changes. And, I am sorry for my overly broad (and rash) characterization of the reasoning behind recent changes.

There are still some changes I think were changes that were 'unnecessary' (which is probably more fair than saying 'changes for the sake of making changes'). The example I am going to give for Forever Skies is going to sound a bit reductive and trivial, and it sadly falls into the aforementioned 'nitpicky' category, but it comes immediately to mind: The Engines.

Was there a problem differentiating the engines before? Their performance was vastly different. Their fuel capacity was different. Their appearance was significantly different. Did they need completely different mounting rules so that players would not confuse them? I'd say, no. It doesn't make sense, and it doesn't add to the function or enjoyment or immersion of the game to mount them differently. It'd be like having a car game and saying, "Well, basic tires can only be mounted on the bumpers, but you can mount the upgraded tires anywhere." Tires be tires. They should go in the same places, wherever you decide those places to be, and it really should be just the appearance and performance that changes. So, this would an example of a change for the sake of a change in my opinion, which I admit could be incorrect and unfair. Maybe it was a change with a reason. But, even then, it is a change I disagree with and argue makes not a great amount of sense.

I could give other examples, but I'm just one cranky old man, so won't belabor the point or assume my opinions are worth more than they are (a wheezy gust of air less significant than an ant's fart). Though, if you are curious about any of those opinions and the supporting reasons for them, I would love to share them. Who wouldn't? Don't we all dream of being able to influence the games and narratives we love?

Anyway, if I could tie this ramble up with a neat little bow (or three), it would be this:

- I may not always agree with the changes you make, and I may be vocal about it, but I still love Forever Skies and I still absolutely recommend it and want to support it (make merch, make dlc... take my money!). If I do disagree, it is because I want the best for Forever Skies, not because I am trying to tear it down. Promise.

- If I misspoke, either in factual accuracy or in tone, I apologize. I love robust discussion and debate, but I did not mean to offend or impugn your (pl.) character(s). And, I do not intend to state inaccurate information in my arguments. So, if such was the case, I am indeed sorry for that.

- Um... I forgot my third point because I went back through this post to edit it. So, yeah, I am going to go play Forever Skies some more. For real. Despite my gripes, it remains an absolutely faboo and entrancing game, and I am still hooked... 100% (unlike my hydration level).

- Oh, yeah! I remember now! There were several other changes that I did not mention. Something, something, something about that... ^_^;

Cheers!

P.S.

I am honestly truly sorry if I caused offense. I am also remorseful that in my haste in posting my initial comments that I did not allocate equal (if not more) time to tell you everything I love and appreciate about Forever Skies.

In retrospect, I realize what I posted came across less like rational critique and more like that rantings of self-important keyboard warrior. I am duly chastened and have much self-reflection food for thought.

P.P.S.

I still think the engine mounting is dumb, though. ^_^;

[Fenris]

So, after the update I'm now overflowing in collectibles, sometimes finding multiple in the same room at Radio Towers, but my rate of finding building plan cards is bordering on unbearably low, like one every three locations or so. Further, if I've unlocked furniture or paint, the few cards I do find won't necessarily be airship building parts since its only a max of one card per location after the patch (I think this is a mistake, it should be a max of one each, or 3).

I'm to the point where I have more current tier resources and collectible junk than I can use or fit, but only have a few airship pieces and no stairs or ladder, so can only build a box with a single level. I'm hitting every single location desperately looking for more airship part plans and ignoring everything else. Not enjoying this aspect. If the collectible vendor machines are still capped at 7 sales per location, I am finding more than I can ever use or trade. I think I've found a Cosmic Cat at every other Radio Tower.

[DragynDance]

Originally posted by Fenris:

So, after the update I'm now overflowing in collectibles, sometimes finding multiple in the same room at Radio Towers, but my rate of finding building plan cards is bordering on unbearably low, like one every three locations or so. Further, if I've unlocked furniture or paint, the few cards I do find won't necessarily be airship building parts.

I'm to the point where I have more current tier resources and collectible junk than I can use or fit, but only have a few airship pieces and no stairs or ladder, so can only build a box with a single level. I'm hitting every single location desperately looking for more airship part plans and ignoring everything else. Not enjoying this aspect. If the collectible vendor machines are still capped at 7 sales per location, I am finding more than I can ever use or trade.

I noticed this too, I'm stuck with a single level airship and it's frustrating and driving me nuts. All I ever find are collectibles which just take up more space I don't have because there's no blueprints.