Regarding repairs from an old survival vet

[Doc Hussey]

Since pretty much every thread regarding the change has devolved into a pissing match, how about honest feedback?

The repair system was a broken mess prior to todays patch. Whichever side of the aisle you were on, you can't argue that. It was too simplistic to the point that it didn't need to be in the game at all, which bred this whole division in the first place. Either you thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread because "hur dur, make wood tool, repair scarlet pick!" or you hated that mindset because it didn't make any sense or you just hated the idea of durability to begin with.

Regardless, this is a game that is listed, per the store page, as as a survival game. Don't believe me? Look at the store page yourself. "Trapped deep underground will your survival skills be up to the task?" Survival tends to mean that there will be resource scarcity in some aspects. Without resource scarcity, there is really no "survival" to the game. Tool degradation is just one of many ways that a game can provide resource scarcity in an otherwise unlimited world.

I am firmly on the side of repair and degrade. It makes you consider the uses of an item vs how hard it is to obtain or repair. Even Minecraft, the oft cited "best game of all time" uses a degradation system to make players explore further and collect materials.

Pretty much every thread I've read since the update has boiled down into a couple main complaints:

1. It costs too much to fix my (tool/armor)- Good point, this is the first iteration and I actually agree that the repair costs are a bit too high. Industry standard is roughly half materials to fix an item. Item takes 20 bars to make, make it 10 to repair it from completely broken and scale it back as it wears. Half broke? 5 bars. Got duplicates or item you don't want? Scrap it down to half materials too. That's pretty fair, would you agree?
   
2. I'm afraid to mine or fight because I don't have the materials to fix my (tool/armor)- Fair thought, but how are you using the item? Are you taking that scarlet pick and going ham in the clay biome? Wouldn't a copper or tin pick one-shot those walls just as handily? Or using wood to bash out dirt? If you've got a big truck and a small car, okay? Which are you going to drive to work every day? The 12 MPG truck or the 40 MPG car?
   
3. I'm running out of (resource) to reapir my (tool/armor)- You can scrap crap now. You know how you get a bunch of copper gear from slimes and maggots? Free copper baby. Tin? Same deal, kill stuff, get drops, scrap drops. In fact, you don't need to hunt for ores if you really don't want to. Kill stuff. Or mine for ores. Or get the shop keepers and buy ores. You've got more freedom and ways to get resources than you did yesterday, believe it or not.
   
   But that's just my 2 cents. I think the change is welcome, even after starting a new char and world. It's a bit overkill right now, but with time comes balance. I can't wait to see what people think if they decide to actually allow you to starve to death.

[DJDiceZ]

Okay, well, there's an easy fix to most of the "is trivial" complaints.

Make repair tied to a blacksmith NPC instead of a table. This also adds some depth to the tenant system. You could even tie in some upgrades (including durability) with it. Currency would be a mix of scraps and ancient coins probably, with different scrap returns depending on the worth of the item salvaged.

Like... Wood = 1 scrap, Copper = 3~5 scrap, Tin = 10 scrap, Slime Sword = 15 scraps, iron = 20 scraps, etc...

The ability to upgrade durability would help those who hate having tools break on them and those who want a sense of progression.

[LVL 99 Slime]

Good point on that. The problem with the current durability system is it just sits in an uncanny valley. To easy to add meaning or weight behind it, but an annoyance occasionally.

Personally I would like if items just scraped down into bars/cloth instead of scrap and then you have to use the same material to repair in a workbench. Add in an internal inventory to the repair bench to store parts in it so you can repair gear quickly without rummaging through chests and i think it'd be alot better mechanic. You'd actually have a reason to build occasional bases to go back to repair at.

[Kasarian]

How hard it is to make 40 wooden pickaxes, scrapping them for scrap and using it to repair everything?...

[Picotrain]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Nakos:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Picotrain:

I'll bite: how does making gear specifically to be thrown away for scrap to repair progressing anything?

Because it serves the larger Durability system, which is something developers find useful as a tool to push players to explore and to make decisions about resources.

I'm not arguing that the current implementation is flawed.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Apocaleptic:

never popular ? whys it used in most games then xD its how things work stuff should break down. its really not an issue to carry the table and wood

Durability is a useful tool for developers. Can you name any games where players say they enjoy it?

It's not currently an issue to carry a repair table and wood because the game isn't finished yet, that might change. Many games that use Durability also have some kind of encumbrance penalty too.

I'm still not seeing how it pushes you to explore. The game itself already pushes exploration. You want to get more materials for the next upgrade. You want to find ring sets and necklaces, build the next crafting station, fight the bosses, etc. The durability system doesn't add anything to that.

[LVL 99 Slime]

The point is to push players to build sub bases for repair. placing down chests and a repair bench, making homes everywhere, not just exploration, but building rail lines and the like to support exploration.

[Picotrain]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LVL 99 Slime:

The point is to push players to build sub bases for repair. placing down chests and a repair bench, making homes everywhere, not just exploration, but building rail lines and the like to support exploration.

Again though, the durability system alone doesn't do that. You can keep your base in the middle, build multiple bases, build rail lines, or not, without repairs being a factor.

[InstableMonster]

Just remove durability imo, i dont find it adds anything except adding downtime. Should look at Terraria, no durabilitt, never removed anything from the game and it helped push the player to explore further without thinking about if they had to go back to base soon

[clogg]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LVL 99 Slime:

Good point on that. The problem with the current durability system is it just sits in an uncanny valley. To easy to add meaning or weight behind it, but an annoyance occasionally.

Personally I would like if items just scraped down into bars/cloth instead of scrap and then you have to use the same material to repair in a workbench. Add in an internal inventory to the repair bench to store parts in it so you can repair gear quickly without rummaging through chests and i think it'd be alot better mechanic. You'd actually have a reason to build occasional bases to go back to repair at.

I agree with this take. In the demo I found it was a bit too harsh with no repair at all, but the current system is just exploitable with wood items such that it has no meaning.

[OregonCrow]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Silverbird:

There's an argument that it shouldn't be in the game at all, since scarcity of resources adds a reason to use lower tiered ores when applicable.

However, as is implemented repairing gear is basically free, since you just craft a wood tool, destroy it, and get to repair anything to max durability.

Games like minecraft require you to burn through tools and discard them when they break because it adds to the game cycle and encourages hoarding more resources and playing the game further.
Games like cryofall expand on this by adding an entire skill around repairs (which is a bit of a stretch for an entire skill; in core keeper repair %age could scale off of crafting skill and/or have it's own perk).
Dismantling could simply be removed from the game entirely and repair materials could spawn as a rare chest-only item, encouraging people to explore further.

As is you just carry around a repair bench alongside your stack of wood and get infinite durability for the low cost of 1 inventory slot. This is too easy of a game exploit and I hope it gets changed asap--not only is it free, but it only takes 1 inventory slot for infinite durability on-the-go.

where's this argument at?

[Throhk]

I'm not a big fan of the repair function in games. I think the option to toggle the function on and off in the server settings would be great. The same with hunger actually, but thats a different issue. When it comes to repairing, you could add a repair npc that uses the coins. The higher the tier of the gear, the more expensive it is to repair. You could also give him an option to repair using materials that you provide. This circumvents the issue of carrying the bench around with you nicely. Honestly, I think the best bet would be to get rid of salvage all together and add a break down option to either get a few materials from it or some coins. With no salvage, you can adjust repair prices and materials based upon tier without having to deal with all that extra trouble.

[Revalopod]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Nakos:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Picotrain:

Nope, you're not the only one.

The issue is that games need both carrots and sticks. Durability is never popular among players, but it's still a useful "stick" for the developers to push players in certain progression directions.

terraria has the most satisfying progression out of any game in this kind of genre yet does not use such a cheap tactic as durability. durability alone is the reason I disliked this game when I tried the demo.

[Nakos]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Picotrain:

I'm still not seeing how it pushes you to explore. The game itself already pushes exploration. You want to get more materials for the next upgrade. You want to find ring sets and necklaces, build the next crafting station, fight the bosses, etc. The durability system doesn't add anything to that.

Yeah, I understand. You don't like the system.

And I'm not trying to say it's well implemented in this game (yet). And even if it was well implemented I doubt you'd like it. Players usually don't.

I'm just trying to explain what developers tend to see it as.

Right now, it's easy to circumvent. But in the final release, it may be a lot harder to avoid. And that would move it in the direction I was attempting to explain to you.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Revalopod:

terraria has the most satisfying progression out of any game in this kind of genre yet does not use such a cheap tactic as durability. durability alone is the reason I disliked this game when I tried the demo.

Terraria is an action game (as far as I understand, I haven't played it myself). This is a survival and exploration sandbox game. I appreciate that there's a lot of overlap, but this is closer to something like Conan Exiles, or Starbound (in my opinion).

Durability is present in many (though admittedly not all) Survival games.

[Revalopod]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Nakos:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Revalopod:

terraria has the most satisfying progression out of any game in this kind of genre yet does not use such a cheap tactic as durability. durability alone is the reason I disliked this game when I tried the demo.

Terraria is an action game (as far as I understand, I haven't played it myself). This is a survival and exploration sandbox game. I appreciate that there's a lot of overlap, but this is closer to something like Conan Exiles, or Starbound (in my opinion).

Durability is present in many (though admittedly not all) Survival games.

starbound and terraria are almost the same game, if it's similar to one it's similar to both
(I am a huge fan of both btw)

[Fate]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Revalopod:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Nakos:

The issue is that games need both carrots and sticks. Durability is never popular among players, but it's still a useful "stick" for the developers to push players in certain progression directions.

terraria has the most satisfying progression out of any game in this kind of genre yet does not use such a cheap tactic as durability. durability alone is the reason I disliked this game when I tried the demo.

+1 Agreed Terraria did it right. Repairing the pickaxe so often gets quite annoying after awhile

[Astasia]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Nakos:

Terraria is an action game (as far as I understand, I haven't played it myself). This is a survival and exploration sandbox game. I appreciate that there's a lot of overlap, but this is closer to something like Conan Exiles, or Starbound (in my opinion).

Durability is present in many (though admittedly not all) Survival games.

Core Keeper is very much the same type of game as Terraria. I would say "top down Terraria" is a perfect description of this game and what many people have been calling it. You have an open world to explore and mine stuff, chests to find for interesting loot, some bosses of various tiers to fight and unlock harder content, a town to make for NPCs to move into, and Terraria has a survival mode (The Constant) where you need to eat food to prevent starving to death. The two main differences right now is Core Keeper has a leveling mechanic instead of simply finding upgrades, and Terraria has a much larger variety of playstyles but that's mostly because Core Keeper is still early in development I imagine.

Keplerth is another very similar game, top down, mine blocks, survival, tiered boss fights, it does have a durability system and repair mechanic. So really this type of game can go either way, durability isn't a critical aspect of the genre, but it's a method to create resource sinks that some developers prefer.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Fate:

+1 Agreed Terraria did it right. Repairing the pickaxe so often gets quite annoying after awhile

Overall I would say this discussion is pretty insignificant because by the time you have an iron pickaxe and the chance to not lose durability skill maxed out, it takes absolutely ages for the pick to break, and you can just carry two if you want and don't like the idea of repairing in the field. The game autoswitches your broken tool with a replacement if it's in your bag.