KK/SNK DEVS LISTEN UP! (Whip & Maxima concerns)

[Tsuyoi Yuki]

Please stop nerfing already bad characters.

I dunno if you are aware. But Whip and Maxima were already some of the worst characters in KOFXIV. And the only things that allowed them to be remotely viable was while they were in max mode (for their EX moves).

Now in KOFXV, these two characters in particular, are even worse than ever.

Removing overhead ex moves that launched really make them weaker than ever (and makes other characters weaker as well. And besides NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS CHANGE).

Whip lost her low > over head mix. Example 2B x 63214A+C. NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS NERF. Her EX Crescent Swatter 4214B+C now no longer launches opponent in air (in XIV on hit the move would bounce opponent in air for a juggle follow up), but is now completely useless after a close 5C. THE MOVE (either version) IS TOO SLOW NOW IN XV, IT WON'T EVEN COMBO AFTER CLOSE 5C ON HIT. Nor is it a viable block string. Sure you get the otg follow up. But the launch properties in XIV gave her multiple combo route options. And now that's stripped away from her in XV....FOR NO REASON.

Also while I'm on the subject of a 4214 input move.

EVERYONE HATES THIS CHANGE. THIS INPUT SUCKS AND IT TRULY RUINS CONSISTENCY FOR USING SPECIAL MOVES WITH THIS INPUT.

The 421 input was just fine. Please change all 4214 input moves BACK TO 421.

Probably the biggest INJUSTICE you folks have done to Whip is NERF her range on her viable special & EX moves that are intended to control space. Visually it's deceptive when you see where the weapon is supposed to hit opponents and her moves completely whiff and misses the opponent. Its very degrading and insulting to a Whip player. She's always had this problem in XIV. Now its WORSE THAN EVER IN XV. 63214A+C has laughably short range, especially above her head at a 45 degree angle. Opponents just jump in for free and the move whiffs all the time from where yo see her weapon actually is. 63214A has this very same problem.

Both of these moves (63214A & 63214A+C) should be viable anti air attacks. And neither of them are and have ABSOLUTELY terrible range (above her head at a 45 degree angle to be used as an anti air and to control space).

Also I strongly believe Whip's 63214A should be super cancelable (after she stomps on the opponent for OTG 236236A/A+C super).

My last complaint about how weak Whip is, is about her 63214B. This move is absolutely terrible now. Lets compare XIV and XV versions:

63214B in XIV:

- Hits twice with decent range. Allowed for guaranteed follow-up on hit
- Solid at controlling mid range while opponent is standing on ground
- More chances to hit opponent in air from mid range hops
- Great corner combo extension tool. For example: (while in max mode/cancel) 63214A+C > 2D x 63214B (2 hits) x 2141236A
- On block both players were at neutral

63214B in XV:

- Hits once with very deceptive range, hitbox is much shorter than it looks. And that's bad for the Whip player
- DOESN'T HIT OPPONENT IN AIR AT ALL
- CANNOT BE USED AS A COMBO EXTENSION TOOL (midscreen or in the corner). For example: 63214A+C > 2D x 63214B WILL WHIFF EVERY TIME no matter how early you do this combo. This RUINS the optimal combo potential/routes she once had in XIV
- Whip is at a frame advantage on block

So as you can clearly see. The new version of 63214B is, unquestionably, absolutely inferior to how much better it was in XIV. AGAIN, A NERF NO ONE ASKED FOR.

Maxima lost a viable launcher and combo extender with his ex air vapor canon no longer launching (in xiv it bounced the opponent in to the air for a juggle follow up). NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS NERF.

Maxima ALSO lost his ability to cancel Maxima Press 63214B/D into super. I have zero clue why you folks took at away from him. For no reason. AGAIN, A NERF NO ONE ASKED FOR. And while Im on that subject, his follow up 214A/C (after Maxima Press) SHOULD ALSO BE SUPER CANCELABLE. A buff he needed since xiv IMHO.

The main for this post is beecause I am extremely disappointed in KOFXV as of right now. I spent 6 years playing these characters in KOFXIV. And even after the buffs they received in XIV, they were still laughably terrible weak characters. So its soul crushing to see they are even WORSE than ever before in KOFXV.

I am strongly suggesting, and hoping, that KK/SNK Dev team take my concerns and suggestions for these two characters VERY SERIOUSLY.

I am tired of seeing these unpopular, unviable, weak characters continue to remain this way. It does NOT have to remain this way. I think the balancing goal in KOFXV is to make ALL CHARACTERS tournament viable on a competitive level. By any means necessary.

And that includes hopefully listening, to a nobody...such as myself. Who truly loves these characters. And I just want to see them competitively viable for once (in KOFXIV/XV).

Excellent post to consider for Maxima - By: Tonyu

Originally posted by Tonyu:

I'm currently maining Maxima and I agree with this. I feel Maxima is missing a lot of key elements that big characters usually have in other fighting games.

Big characters usually have a RELIABLE anti projectile since they lack zoning. Reliable meaning they're easy to use. Zangief has his headbutt and armor V-Skill in SFV, Potemkin has his flick, and so on. Maxima on the other hand only has his Vapor Cannon and guard points, but they're NOT RELIABLE. Vapor Cannon starts slow, so you can't just react against a projectile. His guard point frames are so short it's hard to reliably guard point a projectile, or anything for that matter. Not to mention his normal moves with guard points recover slow like his standing C, so even if you were to reliably guard point a projectile the opponent can easily run and hit you while you're recovering. His guard point frames are so short that they high risk low reward.

Also normally big characters with guard points in other games are able guard low attacks, especially in fast-paced games like the Marvel VS series and Guilty Gear. KOF XV is a fast-paced game where almost all the characters rely on quick crouching B to start combos, but Maxima doesn't have any low guard point at all.

Now compare this to other better character with reliable anti projectile tools. Athena has projectiles and a reflect that starts fast with long reflect frames AND has utility has an anti-air. Elizabeth also has the same as Athena WITH the extra ability of using it as a spammable bnb combo AND she also has a counter move that deals with projectiles AND she also has a projectile. Elizabeth, a high tier character, has THREE reliable anti-projectile tools. So many good characters have so many RELIABLE anti-projectile tools while Maxima has none.

Additionally other ways that big characters usually deal with zoners is that they have a motion skill to close the gap. SFIV Zangief had his glowing palm, Potemkin has his Hammerfall and Mega Fist, etc. Maxima's new Maxima Charge could've been a good move to deal with zoners, but unfortunately the damn move is unsafe. Sure it has guard point at the start, but again the frames are so short it's effing hard to use reliably. Not to mention the normal and EX versions have DIFFERENT guard point frame locations so you need to know the different timing of each one, and even so the EX is still unsafe on block.

I feel like SNK only focused on the "cool" and popular characters, and just added characters like Maxima just for the sake of increasing the roster size.

[Makeiks]

Yeah Im afraid they will nerf the strong characters to the ground and that is not what I want. I want characters like Whip,maxima and maybe Ramon to get stronger.

[Fdynasty]

Originally posted by Emperor__Snow:

Please stop nerfing already bad characters.

I dunno if you are aware. But Whip and Maxima were already some of the worst characters in KOFXIV. And the only things that allowed them to be remotely viable was while they were in max mode (for their EX moves).

Now in KOFXV, these two characters in particular, are even worse than ever.

Removing overhead ex moves that launched really make them weaker than ever (and makes other characters weaker as well. And besides NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS CHANGE).

Whip lost her low > over head mix. Example 2B x 63214A+C. NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS NERF. Her EX Crescent Swatter 4214B+C now no longer launches opponent in air (in XIV on hit the move would bounce opponent in air for a juggle follow up), but is now completely useless after a close 5C. THE MOVE (either version) IS TOO SLOW NOW IN XV, IT WON'T EVEN COMBO AFTER CLOSE 5C ON HIT. Nor is it a viable block string. Sure you get the otg follow up. But the launch properties in XIV gave her multiple combo route options. And now that's stripped away from her in XV....FOR NO REASON.

Also while I'm on the subject of a 4214 input move.

EVERYONE HATES THIS CHANGE. THIS INPUT SUCKS AND IT TRULY RUINS CONSISTENCY FOR USING SPECIAL MOVES WITH THIS INPUT.

The 421 input was just fine. Please change all 4214 input moves BACK TO 421.

Probably the biggest INJUSTICE you folks have done to Whip is NERF her range on her viable special & EX moves that are intended to control space. Visually it's deceptive when you see where the weapon is supposed to hit opponents and her moves completely whiff and misses the opponent. Its very degrading and insulting to a Whip player. She's always had this problem in XIV. Now its WORSE THAN EVER IN XV. 63214A+C has laughably short range, especially above her head at a 45 degree angle. Opponents just jump in for free and the move whiffs all the time from where yo see her weapon actually is. 63214A has this very same problem.

Both of these moves (63214A & 63214A+C) should be viable anti air attacks. And neither of them are and have ABSOLUTELY terrible range (above her head at a 45 degree angle to be used as an anti air and to control space).

Also I strongly believe Whip's 63214A should be super cancelable (after she stomps on the opponent for OTG 236236A/A+C super).

My last complaint about how weak Whip is, is about her 63214B. This move is absolutely terrible now. Lets compare XIV and XV versions:

63214B in XIV:

- Hits twice with decent range. Allowed for guaranteed follow-up on hit
- Solid at controlling mid range while opponent is standing on ground
- More chances to hit opponent in air from mid range hops
- Great corner combo extension tool. For example: (while in max mode/cancel) 63214A+C > 2D x 63214B (2 hits) x 2141236A
- On block both players were at neutral

63214B in XV:

- Hits once with very deceptive range, hitbox is much shorter than it looks. And that's bad for the Whip player
- DOESN'T HIT OPPONENT IN AIR AT ALL
- CANNOT BE USED AS A COMBO EXTENSION TOOL (midscreen or in the corner). For example: 63214A+C > 2D x 63214B WILL WHIFF EVERY TIME no matter how early you do this combo. This RUINS the optimal combo potential/routes she once had in XIV
- Whip is at a frame advantage on block

So as you can clearly see. The new version of 63214B is, unquestionably, absolutely inferior to how much better it was in XIV. AGAIN, A NERF NO ONE ASKED FOR.

Maxima lost a viable launcher and combo extender with his ex air vapor canon no longer launching (in xiv it bounced the opponent in to the air for a juggle follow up). NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS NERF.

Maxima ALSO lost his ability to cancel Maxima Press 63214B/D into super. I have zero clue why you folks took at away from him. For no reason. AGAIN, A NERF NO ONE ASKED FOR. And while Im on that subject, his follow up 214A/C (after Maxima Press) SHOULD ALSO BE SUPER CANCELABLE. A buff he needed since xiv IMHO.

The main for this post is beecause I am extremely disappointed in KOFXV as of right now. I spent 6 years playing these characters in KOFXIV. And even after the buffs they received in XIV, they were still laughably terrible weak characters. So its soul crushing to see they are even WORSE than ever before in KOFXV.

I am strongly suggesting, and hoping, that KK/SNK Dev team take my concerns and suggestions for these two characters VERY SERIOUSLY.

I am tired of seeing these unpopular, unviable, weak characters continue to remain this way. It does NOT have to remain this way. I think the balancing goal in KOFXV is to make ALL CHARACTERS tournament viable on a competitive level. By any means necessary.

And that includes hopefully listening, to a nobody...such as myself. Who truly loves these characters. And I just want to see them competitively viable for once (in KOFXIV/XV).

Maxima should get his forward command and hcf chain move from kof2002 this maxima is waste of time and money lol

and whip has a floating jump and no overhead to counter anything they gave her a useless down C with most of the time you end up getting comboed

[Qless]

prefer 421 to 4214 too

[Zé Bostola]

"Please stop nerfing already bad characters."

You already got my attention. They nerfed some moves of certain characters for no reason, like Antonov's j.CD, and he was considered among the worst characters in XIV already.
But KK already told us to be patient about this issue, so let's wait and hope for the best.

[Napalm Cake]

It's the Maxima nerf that I don't get. I didn't play 14 but coming from 13 he is sooo bare bone. Comboing after an EX vapor canon is so frustrating, unless you are close to the corner you have to run and do 3C into C vapor canon, such an easy bnb that is made so inconsistent and unnecessarily frustrating to land midscreen because the opponent doesn't bounce close enough. Even when you land the 3C it looks weird, kinda like a glitch, like you weren't supposed to connect the 3C.

Also I have yet to land a 2A run command grab. the 63214B NEVER CONNECTS and no matter how slow your opponent's reaction is, you'll get punished hard for it.
Speaking of which, the 214A/C follow up is also not very lenient, which is also frustrating cause you never know when you'll hit the corner, you can mash the command and hope for the best but even then you are not guaranteed a success. And not being able the cancel it int super is just adding insult to injury.

I ended up ditching him for Clark/Ralph.

[Tsuyoi Yuki]

This is all amazing feedback folks. Thank you so much so far. I hope KK/SNK Devs consider everything that's been said in here thus far.

[250 Kroot Hounds]

Going to chime in as a Maxima main as well. Its like he has 0 tools for creating pressure and his guard points are inconsistent at best.

Tho I don't know how much of it is cause of Maxima or the game cause it feels like with alot of different characters, getting a full punish takes an act of God while others can just casually trade a hit and still get a full combo

and the rollback frames too

[Tsuyoi Yuki]

bump

[BillHicks]

Hopefully they don't go the Arc Sys route and double down and buff the already strong characters.

[Tsuyoi Yuki]

bumping again. cause may 2022 is close. and these characters still suck.

SNK PLEASE SMH!!!

[Void Kirb]

Maxima is better than he was in 14. You just need to adapt.

[Dante]

SNK wherever you try to wield the buff hammer, use it on Maxima and Whipp but don't forget Ryo.

[Tsuyoi Yuki]

Originally posted by WHEN THE:

Maxima is better than he was in 14. You just need to adapt.

Please tell me exactly how he's better in XV, than in XIV.

Lets see you adapt and come up with logical reasonings. And you better know what you are talking about too. Cause I played Maxima in XIV for 6 years....

[Tsuyoi Yuki]

Originally posted by ♥Mr. J♥:

maybe i'm wrong but from what I understand, I think all those buffs on regular Whip moves combined would be overkill, easy input commands, super good Anti Airs, and OTG at close range, sounds like if i'm not playing against a zoner I could stand in one position and win the match. Maybe improving her EX moves could work, i don't know.

Whip's range isn't as good as one might think. For example the range on some of her special moves are deceptively shorter than where her weapon actually shows. Which was a major problem in XIV as well.

The easier input from 4214, to 421....is a community wide request. Almost everyone hates the 4214 input for special moves.

Whip is supposed to be a zoner, with her weapon. But she really isnt great at that just yet. Which is definitely what some of my suggested buffs would fix.

The newer otg followups actually make the most sense considering the (suggested) moves end with a hard knock down.

[Leeanvan]

i´m a Whip player, and the character is very, LOW. I always try my best to win, i do sometimes, but this character his very weak, VS al overpower characters.

1. The jump C, is unservible, cant contiue with a "combo"
2. All supers are very SLOW, and is almost like 90 frames of recovery (really SNK?), vs the Terry supers are ALL SAFES... This is a Joke...