How is Roche only 3rd class?

[Wolf]

Compared to the other 3rd class SOLDIERS seen in game, he should be at least 2nd class. Is there some lore, not gameplay reason, behind why he's not at least 2nd class?

[Katitoff]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

Let's not forget Rufus, dude is a normal human and a vice president of Shinra (current president), and he was able to keep up with Cloud, supposedly 1st Class soldier with Mako enhancement.

Teeechnically, Rufus has all the shinra tech and training equipment to play with, its not stated he did, but he indeed is exceptional combatant, able to parry Cloud and counterattack him without much of an effort, so he isn't exactly what I would call a normal human either, he is rather close to Turks, so might as well went through similar training with them.

Its just guestimating, but he isn't exactly your ordinary "corporate directors son".

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

Originally posted by Katitoff:

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

Let's not forget Rufus, dude is a normal human and a vice president of Shinra (current president), and he was able to keep up with Cloud, supposedly 1st Class soldier with Mako enhancement.

Teeechnically, Rufus has all the shinra tech and training equipment to play with, its not stated he did, but he indeed is exceptional combatant, able to parry Cloud and counterattack him without much of an effort, so he isn't exactly what I would call a normal human either, he is rather close to Turks, so might as well went through similar training with them.

Its just guestimating, but he isn't exactly your ordinary "corporate directors son".

From my understanding he came back from the front lines of the Wutai war, so it's very possible he's around level 13 or 14 at that point, which explains why he's stronger than your average Soldier.

[Pyro3000]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

Originally posted by Katitoff:

Teeechnically, Rufus has all the shinra tech and training equipment to play with, its not stated he did, but he indeed is exceptional combatant, able to parry Cloud and counterattack him without much of an effort, so he isn't exactly what I would call a normal human either, he is rather close to Turks, so might as well went through similar training with them.

Its just guestimating, but he isn't exactly your ordinary "corporate directors son".

From my understanding he came back from the front lines of the Wutai war, so it's very possible he's around level 13 or 14 at that point, which explains why he's stronger than your average Soldier.

Levels is probably a poor way to gauge how strong everyone is, when some fat guy in charge of the space program is likely going to be a boss in the next game, and then another Rufus fight later. Not to mention the first Rufus encounter takes place before you hit Wutai, so in theory he would be weaker than everyone there.

Besides, we're probably going to start Rebirth around level 10, despite Remake ending just shy of level 40, with no logical reason for everyone suddenly being weaker again.

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

Originally posted by Pyro3000:

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

From my understanding he came back from the front lines of the Wutai war, so it's very possible he's around level 13 or 14 at that point, which explains why he's stronger than your average Soldier.

Levels is probably a poor way to gauge how strong everyone is, when some fat guy in charge of the space program is likely going to be a boss in the next game, and then another Rufus fight later. Not to mention the first Rufus encounter takes place before you hit Wutai, so in theory he would be weaker than everyone there.

Besides, we're probably going to start Rebirth around level 10, despite Remake ending just shy of level 40, with no logical reason for everyone suddenly being weaker again.

That's why I'm using the original as a basis not the remake, everyone gradually gets stronger, same with the bad guys. I mean it's not perfect, but it's fantasy, it's a world where you go from beating soldiers from Shinra, to dragons and Midgar Zoloms, to kaiju like weapons, to Gods. You need to use some imagination and power scaling for it to make any sense, fortunately we have a leveling system for that.

[Pyro3000]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

Originally posted by Pyro3000:

Levels is probably a poor way to gauge how strong everyone is, when some fat guy in charge of the space program is likely going to be a boss in the next game, and then another Rufus fight later. Not to mention the first Rufus encounter takes place before you hit Wutai, so in theory he would be weaker than everyone there.

Besides, we're probably going to start Rebirth around level 10, despite Remake ending just shy of level 40, with no logical reason for everyone suddenly being weaker again.

That's why I'm using the original as a basis not the remake, everyone gradually gets stronger, same with the bad guys. I mean it's not perfect, but it's fantasy, it's a world where you go from beating soldiers from Shinra, to dragons and Midgar Zoloms, to kaiju like weapons, to Gods. You need to use some imagination and power scaling for it to make any sense, fortunately we have a leveling system for that.

Even in the original, it's impossible for Rufus to be as weak as he is at the top of Shinra HQ. There's not much making sense of the system unless you want to say that Rufus underestimating Cloud is reflected by lowering his own level.

Then factor in that Vincent and Yuffie both join at levels based on Cloud or the party. Somehow, I doubt Vincent is doing a bunch of hard training in his coffin just because the party didn't open a safe as early as they could have.

I'd say it's fair to view Cloud as being as strong any Soldier 1st Class would be post-retirement. He's not regularly training, and it would be expected that his abilities would fall. He essentially still has the experience of a 1st Class, and that's what helps him stay a cut above everyone else. His actual capabilities probably put him a little below 3rd Class at the start of the game, and then slowly working his way up towards 1st class as combat experience helps his body reach the capabilities his mind already has.

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

Originally posted by Pyro3000:

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

That's why I'm using the original as a basis not the remake, everyone gradually gets stronger, same with the bad guys. I mean it's not perfect, but it's fantasy, it's a world where you go from beating soldiers from Shinra, to dragons and Midgar Zoloms, to kaiju like weapons, to Gods. You need to use some imagination and power scaling for it to make any sense, fortunately we have a leveling system for that.

Even in the original, it's impossible for Rufus to be as weak as he is at the top of Shinra HQ. There's not much making sense of the system unless you want to say that Rufus underestimating Cloud is reflected by lowering his own level.

Then factor in that Vincent and Yuffie both join at levels based on Cloud or the party. Somehow, I doubt Vincent is doing a bunch of hard training in his coffin just because the party didn't open a safe as early as they could have.

I'd say it's fair to view Cloud as being as strong any Soldier 1st Class would be post-retirement. He's not regularly training, and it would be expected that his abilities would fall. He essentially still has the experience of a 1st Class, and that's what helps him stay a cut above everyone else. His actual capabilities probably put him a little below 3rd Class at the start of the game, and then slowly working his way up towards 1st class as combat experience helps his body reach the capabilities his mind already has.

So, you don't think bad guys can level up? You think the world rules are only exclusive for the heroes and do not apply for the bad guys, is that your argument?

[Pyro3000]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

Originally posted by Pyro3000:

Even in the original, it's impossible for Rufus to be as weak as he is at the top of Shinra HQ. There's not much making sense of the system unless you want to say that Rufus underestimating Cloud is reflected by lowering his own level.

Then factor in that Vincent and Yuffie both join at levels based on Cloud or the party. Somehow, I doubt Vincent is doing a bunch of hard training in his coffin just because the party didn't open a safe as early as they could have.

I'd say it's fair to view Cloud as being as strong any Soldier 1st Class would be post-retirement. He's not regularly training, and it would be expected that his abilities would fall. He essentially still has the experience of a 1st Class, and that's what helps him stay a cut above everyone else. His actual capabilities probably put him a little below 3rd Class at the start of the game, and then slowly working his way up towards 1st class as combat experience helps his body reach the capabilities his mind already has.

So, you don't think bad guys can level up? You think the world rules are only exclusive for the heroes and do not apply for the bad guys, is that your argument? :lunar2020thinkingtiger:

Far from it. I'm saying it doesn't make any sense for world enemies, such as everything around Wutai, to be stronger than Rufus. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense for Vincent's power level to be entirely dependent on how strong the party is when they meet him. I'm saying it doesn't make sense for some fat guy with a gun to be stronger than Rufus when the plot makes it clear that he absolutely fears him. The plot and the level system will never line up properly, and the level system will never be an accurate way to gauge how powerful people are in relation to the plot.

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

Originally posted by Pyro3000:

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

So, you don't think bad guys can level up? You think the world rules are only exclusive for the heroes and do not apply for the bad guys, is that your argument?

Far from it. I'm saying it doesn't make any sense for world enemies, such as everything around Wutai, to be stronger than Rufus. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense for Vincent's power level to be entirely dependent on how strong the party is when they meet him. I'm saying it doesn't make sense for some fat guy with a gun to be stronger than Rufus when the plot makes it clear that he absolutely fears him. The plot and the level system will never line up properly, and the level system will never be an accurate way to gauge how powerful people are in relation to the plot.

You're trying to make sense with fantasy? Good luck with that.

The thing with Wutai, Wutai have trained ninjas, Yuffie and Sonon defeated Soldier members and Deepground soldiers like they were nothing. So Wutai is strong. Vincent is like a vampire, he's powerful by default. Palmer was a joke fight, I doubt Cloud and party went all out against him. Even so, he might've leveled up, you don't know what kind of training these bad guys go through, just cause they look like a joke don't make them pushovers, I mean look at Cait Sith, does he look like he can fight? Yet he's as strong as any of the party members.

Again you're trying to apply logic in a fantasy game... just don't.

[Pyro3000]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

Originally posted by Pyro3000:

Far from it. I'm saying it doesn't make any sense for world enemies, such as everything around Wutai, to be stronger than Rufus. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense for Vincent's power level to be entirely dependent on how strong the party is when they meet him. I'm saying it doesn't make sense for some fat guy with a gun to be stronger than Rufus when the plot makes it clear that he absolutely fears him. The plot and the level system will never line up properly, and the level system will never be an accurate way to gauge how powerful people are in relation to the plot.

You're trying to make sense with fantasy? Good luck with that.
Again you're trying to apply logic in a fantasy game... just don't.

That's exactly what I was getting at, because that's exactly what you were doing.

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

Originally posted by Pyro3000:

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

You're trying to make sense with fantasy? Good luck with that.
Again you're trying to apply logic in a fantasy game... just don't.

That's exactly what I was getting at, because that's exactly what you were doing.

No I'm not. I'm using a leveling system from the game mind you to estimate their power levels. That's me making as much sense as fantasy allows, in other words fictional not logical.

[RPG Gamer Man]

Originally posted by Theroux:

He's also a bit of a showboat. Sure he seems legit during those rowdy cutscenes, but then you fight him and he's pretty easy.

agreed. He kinda likes to talk bs about his own abilities, but when it comes down to it, there not as good as he thinks they are.

[RPG Gamer Man]

Originally posted by Pyro3000:

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

From my understanding he came back from the front lines of the Wutai war, so it's very possible he's around level 13 or 14 at that point, which explains why he's stronger than your average Soldier.

Levels is probably a poor way to gauge how strong everyone is, when some fat guy in charge of the space program is likely going to be a boss in the next game, and then another Rufus fight later. Not to mention the first Rufus encounter takes place before you hit Wutai, so in theory he would be weaker than everyone there.

Besides, we're probably going to start Rebirth around level 10, despite Remake ending just shy of level 40, with no logical reason for everyone suddenly being weaker again.

I bet they will say something to the effect the whispers caused the characters to get weaker..i mean it would make sense they say something like that.

[Prydzen ᛋᛟ]

cloud is not 1st class soldier he did not even make soldier but somehow he managed to plunge sephiroth into the lifestream. And got SOLDIER treatment on steroids from hojo infusing mako+sephiroth cells into cloud.