impossible orders

[mahu]

in my very first post-tutorial game, her majesty in her infinite wisdom gave me a choice of 2 orders - either produce skewers or fulfill leisure 60 times. However, a small issue - there was no blueprint either for skewer-producing building nor one for a tavern. Even better, producing ale is impossible as well, because there's no clay (so no pottery), no copper (so no barrels) and no wheat (so no ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ beer) on the entire map - and yes, there was no blueprint for a regular farm as well. oh, and there was only one source of meat that ran out almost immediately. even better, to follow it up, another set of orders was to increase resolve of my people - which is impossible without producing a bunch of goods. Tried to offset some of it through trading, but trading still can't get me a tavern.

so, are orders like that common in this game? cause right now it feels like a random rng ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ just designed to make me fail and waste time, instead of actually trying to accomplish something - and if yes, it might be a good idea to refund while i can. i'm playing on pioneer difficulty (i assumed it would be normal one)


EDIT: I think i understand now. This order system perfectly simulates dealing with your average crowned royal, disconnected completely from reality - the queen just sits in her castle and writes deranged orders, and it is up to us poor peons to actually make this society work despite her clear mental disability.
it's time for a revolution

[kory]

The game is all about working with what you have. Sometimes you won't get a tavern, but other buildings can fulfill leisure.

Just the same, there are many ways to win besides doing the queens orders, and some games you just cant do them all and have to find another way.

I will say, on pioneer difficulty, no amount of RNG will force a loss to a skilled player, the game is not, as you say, random rng just designed to make you fail.

[Samseng Yik]

Whatever order you get, it may not mean "you able to do it now".
The queen has flickery demand and attitude.
It is yourself have to make sure whatever way to win.
1) Recheck current biome are you able to produce such items? Can get such ingredient?
2) Keep an eye, maybe can complete it in next 1 or 2 year

"so, are orders like that common in this game? cause right now it feels like a random rng ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ just designed to make me fail and waste time"
This is extremely harsh sentence. However I can understand if you are from gaming background without dealing much with randomness.
The game did not design for you to fulfill every order. Your only order is "secure enough reputation and then you victory".
The path has multiple options, there are even special landmark modifier remove queen order from a settlement, and you can only rely on secure reputation through happiness and event.
Even then, the game is entirely winnable.
Order from the queen is just 1 way to gain reputation.

Finally, this is not game like RTS and Simcity.
A player have to plan around "choose the least worst thing from option"

[mahu]

managed to finish the map, but it felt not like it was accomplished thanks to careful planning, but instead blind luck allowed me to finish with some glade events - because 3 of the orders i received were impossible to do in the biome i played.

guess i expected less rng nonsense and more planning from this title

[kory]

Eventually you will plan to do glade events as a way of winning, and then it won't feel like blind luck.

[el Darkness]

If you can't get enough Reputation from Orders to win a game (later Orders will never suffice, even if you do them all) you can still get Reputation by other means. Some Glade events found in Dangerous Glades will offer you option to get Reputation. If you manage to increase Resolve of your folks they will begin to generate Reputation for you. Some Cornerstones will make it possible for you to get Reputation. Sometimes Traders will trade 0,5 Reputation for Amber.

There is a lot of RNG in this game, if you dislike that, then I recomment refunding. The RNG (luck) may be blind, but this game is about working with what you are given. If you make correct decisions, you will almost always win. I am playing mid-high difficulty (Prestige 11), to get there I played around 45 games with 100% win ratio. Even better, there are people who play on max difficulty and have win streak of 80+ games. Do you think in a game that forces you to rely on good luck (RNG) you can achieve this? I don't.

[Superbest]

Originally posted by mahu:

so, are orders like that common in this game?

It's normal to get 1-3 orders that are impossible or unfeasible to complete. The game technically doesn't have "dud orders" - nothing like opening an order packet and getting "oops, you were expecting an order, but actually this order slot is wasted now".

I personally find it irritating. There should be some "pass" option where you refuse both orders, and get a much smaller reward than what a successful order would give, like 0.2 rep and and 5 food or something. But the game does seem balanced such that you don't have to complete all orders to win, assuming you don't get a string of bad orders at a very unlucky time.

However the current algorithm for generating orders is probably very simple. Making it not generate impossible orders would require adding quite a bit of complex logic. Or alternatively you could give players more control over orders but then it would be work to balance. Meanwhile a lot of people on these forums love the RNG shenanigans and think it adds to the "challenge" and "skill ceiling". So I doubt the devs will do all that work while also going against a very vocal group in their forums.

[Superbest]

Originally posted by mahu:

managed to finish the map, but it felt not like it was accomplished thanks to careful planning, but instead blind luck allowed me to finish with some glade events - because 3 of the orders i received were impossible to do in the biome i played.

guess i expected less rng nonsense and more planning from this title

Welcome to AtS lol. This seems like the intended experience. You're just missing the last part where you go back and trash talk on the forums about how you totally won by skill and people should gitgud.

[mahu]

Originally posted by Superbest:

Originally posted by mahu:

managed to finish the map, but it felt not like it was accomplished thanks to careful planning, but instead blind luck allowed me to finish with some glade events - because 3 of the orders i received were impossible to do in the biome i played.

guess i expected less rng nonsense and more planning from this title

Welcome to AtS lol. This seems like the intended experience. You're just missing the last part where you go back and trash talk on the forums about how you totally won by skill and people should gitgud.

oh... then in that case yes, it was my galactic-sized gigabrain that allowed me to overcome all obstacles in front of me, and all of you scrubs should bow in defiance to my obvious superiority. grovel. grovel, i say!


(seriously though, not sure where skill comes into rolling the dice. maybe i'll figure it out sometime)

[el Darkness]

Originally posted by mahu:

(seriously though, not sure where skill comes into rolling the dice. maybe i'll figure it out sometime)

I actually hate games that are so random that you need to rely on good luck to actually win. This game is different. It has RNG, true. This RNG can make the game harder, this RNG can be unfair, but you can still win despite the odds. I have yet to see trully unwinnable scenario so poorly randomised that you cannot learn from the experience. Sometimes the lesson is not obvious.

[Panfilo]

Using tools to donate caches is another option. You can either make the tools yourself or use order rewards and traders on them. I think some glades can have as many as 3 caches in them so if you've got the tools you can gain a lot of rep.

[Superbest]

Originally posted by mahu:

oh... then in that case yes, it was my galactic-sized gigabrain that allowed me to overcome all obstacles in front of me, and all of you scrubs should bow in defiance to my obvious superiority. grovel. grovel, i say!

(seriously though, not sure where skill comes into rolling the dice. maybe i'll figure it out sometime)

There you go, now you're getting it!

People say it's about mitigating the RNG and to some extent it's true. But there's always a big chunk you can't mitigate.

I guess that's true of all roguelikes. There's always the one streamer guy who plays the game all day every day like a full time job and he can win any character. And then you have most players grinding through many runs that are crippled by RNG until they have a good one.

[kory]

Originally posted by Superbest:

Originally posted by mahu:

oh... then in that case yes, it was my galactic-sized gigabrain that allowed me to overcome all obstacles in front of me, and all of you scrubs should bow in defiance to my obvious superiority. grovel. grovel, i say!

(seriously though, not sure where skill comes into rolling the dice. maybe i'll figure it out sometime)

There you go, now you're getting it!

People say it's about mitigating the RNG and to some extent it's true. But there's always a big chunk you can't mitigate.

I guess that's true of all roguelikes. There's always the one streamer guy who plays the game all day every day like a full time job and he can win any character. And then you have most players grinding through many runs that are crippled by RNG until they have a good one.

The fact that "that one streamer" can win consistently tells you the game is not decided by RNG, it really is just a matter of player skill. The other players who lose until they get a lucky run are actually just less skilled, and so they rely on luck. This does not mean the game is all about luck, it means exactly that skill is entirely what matters, with luck only mattering if you lack skill.

[Superbest]

Originally posted by kory:

The fact that "that one streamer" can win consistently tells you the game is not decided by RNG, it really is just a matter of player skill. The other players who lose until they get a lucky run are actually just less skilled, and so they rely on luck. This does not mean the game is all about luck, it means exactly that skill is entirely what matters, with luck only mattering if you lack skill.

Thanks for proving my point lol

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Superbest:

Originally posted by kory:

The fact that "that one streamer" can win consistently tells you the game is not decided by RNG, it really is just a matter of player skill. The other players who lose until they get a lucky run are actually just less skilled, and so they rely on luck. This does not mean the game is all about luck, it means exactly that skill is entirely what matters, with luck only mattering if you lack skill.

Thanks for proving my point lol

Look, that's just untrue. Compared to other roguelites, AtS is extremely forgiving and fair. There's no "bad RNG? to bad, you lose" situations. There's always something you can do to fix things. Don't have access to the resources you need? Focus on other resources and barter them for what you need in the trade post. Can't finish orders? Get reputation from events and resolve. I do get runs sometimes where RNG is really bad and the progress is torturously slow, but very rarely, and, to be honest, my own mistakes create half of the problems in these cases.

[mahu]

RNG aside, I think i understand it now. This order system perfectly simulates dealing with your average crowned royal, disconnected completely from reality - the queen just sits in her castle and writes deranged orders, and it is up to us poor peons to actually make this society work despite her clear mental disability.
it's time for a revolution