Nerf the Foxes, I guess?

[Alexander]

So, let's compare foxes to other races.

Starting ability.
The nearest geyser reveal of the Foxes is on par with the nearest fertile soil reveal of the Humans and 10 tools of the Lizards, and much better than the starting ability of the Harpies and the Beavers.

Specialization.
Very different from other species' specialization, so it is hard to compare, but I'd say Foxes are on par with Beavers and slightly better than specializations of other species. Meat/horticulture/alchemy are all nice, but situative, while cutting wood and solving events are mandatory in any run, and slightly decreased event solving time can make a huge difference. So far, so good.

Firekeeper bonus.
And that's where problems start. The Fox firekeeer bonus is not actually OP, I'd say it is on par with the Harpy firekeeper bonus. However it directly eclipses the Lizard firekeeper bonus. Lizards give flat +2 resolve, while Foxes reduce hostility, which, effectively, gives you the same resolve bonus, even more resolve during the Storm, plus, probably, less Storm effects to deal with. You might say that hostility reduction from Foxes is not that big, but important thing is that it grows as you go on with your settlement. Often you don't need much hostility reduction to push it below the threshold and get one level less to deal with. It may mean one less stack of the fuel to sacrifice in the hearth, or half of your population not dying of a particularly nasty forest mystery, AND a resolve bonus on top of it.

Resolve traits.
That's the real problem. Foxes have low resolve generation threshold, same as Harpies and Lizards, and it increases slower than that of Lizards. They eat the simplest of the complex foods, porridge, the only complex food type with an ingredient that comes basically for free; even the fuel used to make jerky requires some effort to produce, while rainwater basically falls from the sky pours from the earth. And, on top of that, foxes are not affected by the hostility penalty for resolve.

As a result, they get into reputation generation mode on year 3 and stay there for the most of the duration of the run. Getting reputation from resolve early means getting blueprints early, which means building your economy much, much faster than you could hope in a settlement with no Foxes. In theory, less decadent Harpies should have been on par with Foxes, but Harpies are severely hindered by the hostility penalty for resolve. As a result they start generating reputation later than Foxes. Poor Harpies, fragile and hated by everyone, they lost their only redeeming quality: Foxes are not only better early reputation generators, they also are tanky as hell.

According to the developer notes, the ridiculous cost of Fox houses is supposed to address that. It doesn't. Why would I care to spend metal on Fox houses if Foxes are doing just fine during the Storm while living in shelters, thanks to their unique feature, and they start generating reputation just after the Storm ends if you give them some porridge? Fox house has taken the title of "The most pointless building in the game" from the big shelter, which is no small achievement.

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A few suggestions how to address these points.

Firekeeper bonus.
Either change the Lizard firekeeper bonus to something not related to resolve, or change the Fox firekeeper bonus in a way that these two don't overlap. For example, change the Fox firekeeper bonus to "Rainwater used in engines generates less blightrot". Foxes are supposed to be symbiotic with these parasites, maybe they can strike a better deal with them for the community.

Resolve traits.
Make Foxes more demanding, to make them expect at least two types of complex food served to them before they start generating reputation. This will put them on the same level with harpies.

Fox houses.
Foxes are supposed to like the Forest, yes? When other species cower in their houses from the Storm, Foxes go for a stroll to appreciate the menacing glory of the nature. They probably shouldn't care about housing that much. Make Fox houses cheaper than other species houses (when compared by the amount of basic resources needed) and decrease the bonus from housing Foxes get. Players would want to build Fox houses mainly to free the space in shelters.

[el Darkness]

Maybe changing Foxes Firekeeper bonus to something Blightrot related could be good, i.e. slower corruption generation or increased Hearth resistance?

To be fair, metal houses does not fits creatures that live in the forest, but I do not know what we could use here. I disagree Foxes would likt to take a stroll in the storm, they are immune to Hostility, not Storm :)

[Syrris]

The trouble with making their firekeeper bonus be about blightrot is that it becomes a non-ability on lower difficulties. Yes, people do play on those.

I think the idea with crystal dew is that it's synthesized from rainwater, which they have a connection to, and it would lean a bit too far toward comedy to build them out of porridge instead.

[el Darkness]

Of course, building a house out of food or more hilariously from Rainwater is a no-no. :)
I understand their connection to the Rainwater and by extension to Crystal Dew, but I think such creatures would build their houses from something else. Dunno what though... :(

I thought of using Resin as building material, but it is absent on some maps, it would be bad to restrict their houses to certain biomes. I think I would go for Fabrics but it is already being used in some houses.

[Platapoop]

I too think foxes seem pretty strong.

[Corbeau]

It does feel like foxes resolve threshold is too low, given their passive hostility resist.

[PawN]

I kinda of agree, with need for ajustment, but I think I get annoyed if foxes becomes a new harpy time as suggested, so please make them something else in the meta.

[Oobaneko]

I do not find them so much OP as people see them, because they do not give any bonuses to production, which makes them barrel plug where is no more suitable race presents. For example, blightfighters harpies saves tons of wood and can produce double in herbalist, while humans are superbs in farming and making flower on rain mill, and lizards will give you tons of meat, eggs and leather, so as bonus production in some food facilities.. You can see it not solid, but I can assure, that double production bonus will save a lot of resources and time for you.

Foxes are specialized not on resource gathering and production, but on goal (reputation), that's why them have easy high resolve, otherwise, they will lose to other races due their inability to double production.

Also, having lizards as firekeeper is more productive than fox, because foxes do not suffer from hostility.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Syrris:

The trouble with making their firekeeper bonus be about blightrot is that it becomes a non-ability on lower difficulties. Yes, people do play on those.

Still better than the anti-ability Humans have.

Originally posted by PawN:

I kinda of agree, with need for ajustment, but I think I get annoyed if foxes becomes a new harpy time as suggested, so please make them something else in the meta.

I actually proposed to make them less like Harpies.

Originally posted by Oobaneko:

I do not find them so much OP as people see them, because they do not give any bonuses to production

Giving you early blueprint pick is a HUGE bonus for production, because the buildings are the places where production actually happens.

[Oobaneko]

Originally posted by Alexander:

Originally posted by Syrris:

The trouble with making their firekeeper bonus be about blightrot is that it becomes a non-ability on lower difficulties. Yes, people do play on those.

Still better than the anti-ability Humans have.

Originally posted by PawN:

I kinda of agree, with need for ajustment, but I think I get annoyed if foxes becomes a new harpy time as suggested, so please make them something else in the meta.

I actually proposed to make them less like Harpies.

Originally posted by Oobaneko:

I do not find them so much OP as people see them, because they do not give any bonuses to production

Giving you early blueprint pick is a HUGE bonus for production, because the buildings are the places where production actually happens.

So, first assigments are too hard? I found games with lizards, beavers and humans are most "productive" and easily can outperform easy resolve of foxes by making resolve for one race, still getting the bonus productivity. Foxes demands to play more aggressive, otherwise there are not so many profit from them.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Oobaneko:

So, first assigments are too hard? I found games with lizards, beavers and humans are most "productive" and easily can outperform easy resolve of foxes by making resolve for one race, still getting the bonus productivity. Foxes demands to play more aggressive, otherwise there are not so many profit from them.

My perspective might be skewed because I play on P11. Not playing aggressively on high difficulties will most likely result in huge problems later in the game because of accumulated yearly hostility increase. Foxes don't actually demand aggressive play (that's more about Harpies), but they allow to take the aggressive play to a higher level that would be not accessible without them.

[Oobaneko]

Originally posted by Alexander:

Originally posted by Oobaneko:

So, first assigments are too hard? I found games with lizards, beavers and humans are most "productive" and easily can outperform easy resolve of foxes by making resolve for one race, still getting the bonus productivity. Foxes demands to play more aggressive, otherwise there are not so many profit from them.

My perspective might be skewed because I play on P11. Not playing aggressively on high difficulties will most likely result in huge problems later in the game because of accumulated yearly hostility increase. Foxes don't actually demand aggressive play (that's more about Harpies), but they allow to take the aggressive play to a higher level that would be not accessible without them.

I'm playing on viceroy mostly due it's the hardest difficulty and not broken as prestiges. If nerf foxes - they easily can become useless on viceroy, so as on other difficulties.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Oobaneko:

I'm playing on viceroy mostly due it's the hardest difficulty and not broken as prestiges. If nerf foxes - they easily can become useless on viceroy, so as on other difficulties.

I don't think so. The most broken aspect of Foxes is the early reputation generation. If you don't much care for it, then nerfing it won't affect your playstyle that much. Other aspects are mostly on par with other species, with some minor hickups like the Lizard/Fox flamekeeper bonuses clashing or the pointless house.

[Kittens]

Foxes are strong, but I think Harpies are slightly better still: they make more rep by game end, and their firekeeper bonus is better. So, I don't see the need for a nerf. There is also very little overlap between fox and harpy needs (they don't share a single complex food).

It feels like they absolutely nailed the foxes' balance. It's nice to have an alternative to Harpies, and you don't really want them in the same settlement because of their food requirements.

If anything the Lizards and maybe Beavers could use a buff.

[Oobaneko]

Originally posted by Kittens:

Foxes are strong, but I think Harpies are slightly better still: they make more rep by game end, and their firekeeper bonus is better. So, I don't see the need for a nerf. There is also very little overlap between fox and harpy needs (they don't share a single complex food).

It feels like they absolutely nailed the foxes' balance. It's nice to have an alternative to Harpies, and you don't really want them in the same settlement because of their food requirements.

If anything the Lizards and maybe Beavers could use a buff.

Lizards. Beavers for their wood chopping already top. In one Mushroom woods I had over 800 mushroms dure bonus +3 shoorms to gather.

[PhailRaptor]

Honestly I was shocked they buffed Harpies by giving them Clothing as a Need. That makes the combination of Beaver/Harpy/Human kinda stupid strong and extremely synergistic. Harpies get resolve from Weaver and Clothier/Artisan, then get more Resolve from Clothing Need fulfilled. Both Beavers and Humans have Clothing as a Need, so you knock out all 3 at once. It's pretty easy to get + Berry harvested perks, letting you use the Plantation to get not just a stable source of Food and gateway to multiple relevant Complex Foods, but also segues into Wine for Luxury Need. Grab a Cooperage, or the perk giving Barrels from Plank production, and you're set.