What do you think about Scarlet Orchard?

[LotusBlade]

Does not looks like this is widely discussed topic, so lets talk about specific biom - Scarlet Orchard, also known as 'archeology biom'. There are two unique mechanics: archeology mines and archeology office, providing different bonuses and challanges.

The Mines

I have reached last 2 seals in campaign mode and found that experience with archeology is very consistant in every run. By the time first mine is finally constructed i am already almost won and simply don't need extra +2 reputation. On high prestige doing events takes long, for single mine stage an average 5 minutes (15 overall) + delivery of resources takes time (both to reach destination and to haul 6 pieces at a time from nearby warehouse). Together it can take up to 25 minutes to finish everything, but you also have to include time to actually find needed resources.

Each ingame year is 12 minutes long and you won't probably be super lucky to find mines in first 2 years. At year 2 you build archeology office and get mine location, then start cutting trees to reach it, at year 3 you finally reached it and need another 2-3 years to fully develop that mine. But you gonna win at year 5-6, so either mine won't be finished in time OR it won't change outcome at all. And since we have a whole 3 mines, using them to actually win is very hard since it will require to play for 10-12 years, which is a big NO when you want to have fast runs to finish seals.

For me average run lenght at prestige-5 and below is 4-5 years. For prestige-10 5 years, prestige 11-12 is 6 years and 13-14 is 7 years. Sometimes plus/minus extra year, depending on luck. So the question is, what is your experience with Scarlet Orchard?

The Office

Archeology office, well, in every run i use tier-1 upgrade to unlock first mine location AFTER opening 1-2 glades. If lucky, i don't need the location tip. Then straight going for -10 forest anger per tablet. By the end of run it is highly likely you end up with 10+ tablets providing decent -100 hostility bonus, not as overpowered as some cornerstones or spamming hearts in every glade, yet very pleasant reduction. If you get Fedora cornerstone (+50 chance to double glade event rewards) or Improved Fedora from Sacrifice Temple, ammount of tablets will scyrocket.

So player can interract with Office greatly, changing how run works and it trully provides unique playstyle for Orchard biom. Yet archeology mines, it feels like i need to work a lot and get either no return or very small reward. And there is no specific cornerstones which can help put with mines tactic (which is understandble, cus they are only available here).

The suggestion

So, maybe we just need 1-2 mines in every biom, instead of 3 just for Orchard (while archeology office can stay as unique Orchard building)? It feels like ammount of mine stages should be reduced to 1 from 3 and reputation reward to 1 from 2, to actually give player a chance to get some benefits from each found mine.

In whole game-life lenght (thats 230+ hours) i was able to finish only 7 of those mines, 5 of them pre-seal update before hard nerfs and i played non-efficient winning by year 8-9. The last 2 were done after seal update when 1 reputation bar left to victory, so game did not even allowed TO SEE what was mined out, cus victory message immediately popped out.

[Spacesuit Spiff]

Surprised you didn't mention the carry capacity or tool production perks from the office.

The excavation sites aren't a strategy in and of themselves (although I wonder what would happen if I got the locations of all 3 year 1 and beelined them), but I'll generally try to get one running just in case the run stalls out and I end up needing it. That plus the tools gives a couple options for closing out the game, which makes the biome interesting.

Excavation sites don't really 'land' the way I think they were supposed to. It'd be interesting to see the map reworked to involve them more, but the only way you'd ever manage that is having it reduce other sources of rep gain, or increase the needed rep only on Orchard. Modify its trees to make woodcutting faster (like the opposite of Sealed, a type of tree that goes down quickly and doesn't drop anything), change how Orchard handles hostility from glades to encourage exploration, it's interesting to imagine.

[Selphos]

I honestly wish more of the biomes had their own sidequest-type effects like Orchard. It's one of the most visible unique elements, in stark contrast to the likes of the silent multiplier of the Marsh or the variety trees of the Coral. You can play around it, instead of it just being a passive addition to your round. I think every biome should have a "win con" like that, to increase their identity and diversify the playstyles more.

I do however also agree that it's very easy for an Orchard run to go by without being affected by the dig sites at all. I don't really know what a good solution to this is.

[Chipacabra]

With the overworld mechanics getting more fleshed out, that might be one direction to go. Maybe sufficient exploration into a dig site could give some benefit back on the main map, such as unlocking a new event or providing some kind of bonus to a future settlement.

[Spacesuit Spiff]

Originally posted by Chipacabra:

With the overworld mechanics getting more fleshed out, that might be one direction to go. Maybe sufficient exploration into a dig site could give some benefit back on the main map, such as unlocking a new event or providing some kind of bonus to a future settlement.

That'd be a can of worms. Either we run around trying to farm Orchard games (makes map rng feel bad) or it ends up not being worth the extra years.

[Hariman]

Originally posted by Spacesuit Spiff:

Surprised you didn't mention the carry capacity or tool production perks from the office.

The excavation sites aren't a strategy in and of themselves (although I wonder what would happen if I got the locations of all 3 year 1 and beelined them), but I'll generally try to get one running just in case the run stalls out and I end up needing it. That plus the tools gives a couple options for closing out the game, which makes the biome interesting.

Excavation sites don't really 'land' the way I think they were supposed to. It'd be interesting to see the map reworked to involve them more, but the only way you'd ever manage that is having it reduce other sources of rep gain, or increase the needed rep only on Orchard. Modify its trees to make woodcutting faster (like the opposite of Sealed, a type of tree that goes down quickly and doesn't drop anything), change how Orchard handles hostility from glades to encourage exploration, it's interesting to imagine.

I think splitting the Reputation gained from rebuilding the archeological sites would help, so it's not all in a block at the end.


For Scarlet Forest in general: I find that if I bring along something to help with wood/fuel, food, and take the hostility reduction, it typically goes well.

The abundance of copper also makes building packs, tools, and a few other things REALLY easy to get.

It's a good biome, but not my favorite.

[Hariman]

Originally posted by Spacesuit Spiff:

Originally posted by Chipacabra:

With the overworld mechanics getting more fleshed out, that might be one direction to go. Maybe sufficient exploration into a dig site could give some benefit back on the main map, such as unlocking a new event or providing some kind of bonus to a future settlement.

That'd be a can of worms. Either we run around trying to farm Orchard games (makes map rng feel bad) or it ends up not being worth the extra years.

I think it would be an event on the map that spawns on scarlet orchard:

Rebuild X number of archeological sites for bonus Y.

Have Z number of ancient tablets in your inventory for bonus J.

[[NNC]Torstor571]

Originally posted by Spacesuit Spiff:

Originally posted by Chipacabra:

With the overworld mechanics getting more fleshed out, that might be one direction to go. Maybe sufficient exploration into a dig site could give some benefit back on the main map, such as unlocking a new event or providing some kind of bonus to a future settlement.

That'd be a can of worms. Either we run around trying to farm Orchard games (makes map rng feel bad) or it ends up not being worth the extra years.

I completly agree with this. The main map should be independent from it.
For my deed with excavating all 3 i needed 8 years- but yes, normally it is faster to win without them. It is really rng dependent to find one- and it takes quite a lot of ressources and time to complete them. Normally, on P10 or higher, I find one of three and complete it in 50% of the times. But the 2 rep and the resulting buffs are really strong, so it is everyones choice to wait and complete it or to scrap it.

I love the archaeologists office. All effects are situative but strong (although I always choose the same 3rd tier upgrade, extra yields). It offers quite a lot strategies for the player- got no harpies? Take extra carrying capacity! Exploring a lot (e.g. searching excavations) or got trouble fullfilling forbidden events (e.g. fishcamp food loss)? Take glade speed! Rushing for chests? Take extra tool production! Poor resolve? Reduce hostility! You want excavations badly? Let it reveal their positions!

At first glance all effects and stuff in this biome are unrelated, but they play perfectly well together. I dont see any need for changes- apart from making excavations sligthly cheaper. Putting together a strategy with the office-e.g. focusing on resolve, chest-cracking or excavation hunting(ignoring)- is completly up to us. I like this flexibility, which I miss in the marshlands (I always rush to a forbidden glade for the proto-ressource).

[arjensmit79]

I agree with what has been said:
-It would be nice if more biomes have something as specific as this
-It is too slow so i only do 1 fosil, this could be helped by having some reputation come from every phase. (among other solutions)
-The bonusses of the building are awesome and an extra reason to actually ignore the fossils as you have to choose between the bonus or the location. that too could be changed so doing the fossils is not so discouraged.

[Prowler™]

Its a fun achievement hunt. If you get lucky a watch tower can spawn on the over world giving you 0 glade threat, then you can use the orchard to get 3-4 achievements in a row lol
The actual fossils themselves will usually win the game via rep boosting before you can get all 3 and they do look pretty cool...if you can fit them into your hearth range.

[Hariman]

Originally posted by Prowler™:

Its a fun achievement hunt. If you get lucky a watch tower can spawn on the over world giving you 0 glade threat, then you can use the orchard to get 3-4 achievements in a row lol
The actual fossils themselves will usually win the game via rep boosting before you can get all 3 and they do look pretty cool...if you can fit them into your hearth range. :Spidy:

Their bonuses are amazing too, so they also make it easier to win.