First lost to Seal and starting over...

[Opochtli]

Just had my first lost to the silver seal, starting over feels like a chore. Having to do 1-2 hours maps with basic or no modifiers at all feels rather pointless, just to get back to where I was. Getting 35 crystals is about 5-6 maps which is close to 10 hours I'd say. 10 hours of back tracking is just bad, let us have another shot at the seal if we lose.

I know i'm gonna get alot of the ''this is a rogue like, you like or you don't'' and blablabla, but it's not like you start a dungeon, speed 30 minutes right to where you were unlocking new weapons/different way that shape up your run, After the storm is pretty much the same thing all the time and since it's a strategy game it takes alot more time.

Don't get me wrong, I love its CORE gameplay, I have 60+ hours in the game so far and I'v been preaching the game alot, but this just feels bad.

[kory]

There is the option to just not do the seals, the game played just fine for months with no seals at all.

[Inkidu]

Originally posted by kory:

There is the option to just not do the seals, the game played just fine for months with no seals at all.

This is not a satisfactory answer. The seals make the loop feel bad because there's a goal. Pre seal the game worked fine, but the game was also in Early Access, it's kind of expected that the end goal might not yet be implemented.

Seals just don't feel fun. They don't. They're in hard to cu areas that just pile on RNG and slog.

[Opochtli]

Originally posted by Inkidu:

Originally posted by kory:

There is the option to just not do the seals, the game played just fine for months with no seals at all.

This is not a satisfactory answer. The seals make the loop feel bad because there's a goal. Pre seal the game worked fine, but the game was also in Early Access, it's kind of expected that the end goal might not yet be implemented.

Seals just don't feel fun. They don't. They're in hard to cu areas that just pile on RNG and slog.

Yeah they present me with a goal and I want to achieve it, i don't mind the difficulty, it's just that the whole rogue like aspect for this type of strategy game just doesn't feel good togheter. They would need to add save points or make it alot more wild making each runs feel very unique, if not it's just a long slog that feels pretty much the same to go back to the seal after a dozen hours.

[Samseng Yik]

To not make the topic become negative, I pretend you are well verse with rogue like.
So I will not say anything about "this is the very nature of rogue like"

So, this topic is about you rant about your lose.
No problem. People need release stress and a place to vent.
Just make sure you learn and improve

Edit : You are so wrong about Roguelike nature with this aspect of strategy game being wrong.
You just like a person who can't enjoy durian then call "durian is disgusting".
If you feel the gameplay feel like a chore, maybe you can try maximum 1 settlement per day.
This way, you can keep the gameplay feeling fresh for a long time.
Myself only do around 2 per week. I admit the game difficulty at Prestige 15+ take a toll at me. But I certainly don't blame game. I ask myself to improve.

[Opochtli]

Originally posted by Samseng Yik:

To not make the topic become negative, I pretend you are well verse with rogue like.
So I will not say anything about "this is the very nature of rogue like"

So, this topic is about you rant about your lose.
No problem. People need release stress and a place to vent.
Just make sure you learn and improve

I don't mind losing against the seal, I don't mind having to try several time, I actually like the challenge, but having to back track all the way back to it just isn't fun, it's wasted time.

[Samseng Yik]

Anyway, I very agree to you about the LONG HOURS BETWEEN RETRY complain.
Especially near P20, you need around 100+ years of effort.
I kinda hope got at least 1 "second chance to retry"

[Opochtli]

Originally posted by Samseng Yik:

Anyway, I very agree to you about the LONG HOURS BETWEEN RETRY complain.
Especially near P20, you need around 100+ years of effort.
I kinda hope got at least 1 "second chance to retry"

I'm glad we can agree on that, haven't gotten to that level yet, I can't imagine the hardwork. Would really like a way to shake things up, I do really like the game, but something doesn't feel right about that.

[sanahtlig]

I'm a little over halfway to the Silver Seal--no losses, playing in a way that minimizes the number of settlements per seal--and I'm already growing fatigued with the game. The "standard" runs with no modifiers really do feel like pointless grind, doing the same thing I've already succeeded at before. I'm pretty sure if I failed a Seal that I'd just quit. The game just isn't engaging enough to me at this point that I could tolerate a loss of progress. If I want to put up with meaningless grind, I could spend my free time doing productive work and at least potentially get rewarded for it.

[Stübi Senpai]

Originally posted by Opochtli:

Originally posted by Samseng Yik:

To not make the topic become negative, I pretend you are well verse with rogue like.
So I will not say anything about "this is the very nature of rogue like"

So, this topic is about you rant about your lose.
No problem. People need release stress and a place to vent.
Just make sure you learn and improve

I don't mind losing against the seal, I don't mind having to try several time, I actually like the challenge, but having to back track all the way back to it just isn't fun, it's wasted time.

New attempts let you try and get more royal resupplies on your way to the seal. I agree that the modifiers and where they spawn can feel limiting, but the whole point of Roguelikes is having to play with the hand you're dealt.

Seals test you on basically every game aspect, are you finishing your maps in decent time so the cycle lasts long enough? How many modifiers can you beat before you get to the seal? If the game just let you redo them for free a solid half of what their intended challenge is supposed to be is just gone.

[lethminite]

I'll just chime in to support the OP.
I don't think this is a "rogue lite's just aren't for you" issue.

Against the storm has a giant but subtle difference from most more normal rogue like/lites.
That is that in against the storm, the game is built around the assumption that you will win most of the time, where as normally, they are built around the assumption that you will fail most of the time.

What this means, is unlike in most roguelites, actually losing feels a lot worse, because most of the time you'll win, and losing is a rare failure. Normally, that is reversed, and losing is normal, and the times you make it to the end are rare successes.

Yes, once you get good at them, or get a lot of meta-progression, you might begin to consistently get to the end, but that's a state that you achieve over time, it's not how the game starts out (unless you are just generally really good at games).

So, for Against the storm, failing to complete the seal would feel particularly bad, compared to failing a run in hades/slay the spire/monster train, because it's not just the one run you've failed, but the set of runs, and you weren't expecting to fail.
So it's going to feel more like lost progress, like having a game freeze after grinding, but before you can save, in an RPG.
Now, you haven't actually lost much, just the ~15% bonus resources or w/e, and having the 8 extra years on the next set of runs. So I don't think anything needs to change with the game.

All that said, I think the settlements on the way to the seal shouldn't be thought of as part of a grind to get to the seals, but as the main part of the game. The seal maps are just meant to be a bit of spice at the end. But yes failing seals is going to hurt, more than failing in a rogue like normally should, though it feels a bit like you've lost more than you really have.

[el Darkness]

I am not sure option to save is a good option, unless severly limited Maybe once or twice in a map (perhaps only seal map). Or maybe we can start a run with a unique item like "Phoenix Feather" that lets us, once in a cycle retry a settlement from the start, it could be a gift from the Queen, it could even be required for us to reforge a seal (bronze i.e.) before getting one.

[JillSV]

Maybe having a town upgrade that allows you a second chance at a seal could be a solution, kinda like the grace period upgrades allow you to save a doomed city if you've been skirting too close with the impatience meter. Or having to sacrifice most of your stockpiled food, parts,... to get a second chance.

[Opochtli]

Originally posted by el Darkness:

I am not sure option to save is a good option, unless severly limited Maybe once or twice in a map (perhaps only seal map). Or maybe we can start a run with a unique item like "Phoenix Feather" that lets us, once in a cycle retry a settlement from the start, it could be a gift from the Queen, it could even be required for us to reforge a seal (bronze i.e.) before getting one.

I like that idea

[Opochtli]

Originally posted by Fable:

Originally posted by el Darkness:

I am not sure option to save is a good option, unless severly limited Maybe once or twice in a map (perhaps only seal map). Or maybe we can start a run with a unique item like "Phoenix Feather" that lets us, once in a cycle retry a settlement from the start, it could be a gift from the Queen, it could even be required for us to reforge a seal (bronze i.e.) before getting one.

I think what he wants is a retry. Like maybe he can try one more time immediately if he loses to the Sealed Forest. That's how I understood it, so I don't think it's even necessary to have save points.

Originally posted by Stübi Senpai:

New attempts let you try and get more royal resupplies on your way to the seal. I agree that the modifiers and where they spawn can feel limiting, but the whole point of Roguelikes is having to play with the hand you're dealt.

I agree with this, but I will say, about your point that modifiers and where they spawn feeling limited, perhaps an idea for the game could be to have more modifiers and challenges spawn, then make them less rich in rewards to balance things out.

When I get 3 settlements in a row with no modifiers or anything interesting, even I get a tired of "doing the same thing again" so I do understand where he's coming from. Perhaps more different challenges could also be a suggestion.

Exatcly how I feel too, sometimes I get unlucky and get no modifiers 2-3 maps and a row and it's just... why? Why am i doing this? Even the modifiers aren't that special beside the reward that is nice.

[BladeGrip]

Originally posted by lethminite:

I'll just chime in to support the OP.
I don't think this is a "rogue lite's just aren't for you" issue.

Against the storm has a giant but subtle difference from most more normal rogue like/lites.
That is that in against the storm, the game is built around the assumption that you will win most of the time, where as normally, they are built around the assumption that you will fail most of the time.

Since Hades came up in your message, I want to add one more big difference. If we talk about equivalents, Smoldering City is the dark mirror, a settlement is a battle room, and the seal node is the boss room. I think everyone here would agree that a settlement commonly takes above an hour of real time to finish, so you see the big difference by now.

In Hades, if you die to a boss you'd probably just go "Eh, I'll get back there in a jiffy and try again." since each battle room can be won within seconds and a full run usually doesn't take an hour. In ATS if you lose a seal node it will take days or even weeks to get back there and try again (Depending on the seal tier and how much free time you got). So a defeat in a seal node feels significantly more crushing than losing a run in most other roguelike/lite games.