Master Blueprint

[BT]

It says I get a debuff until I use 300 resources nodes charges, it means that I need to farm 300 times from the camps?

That seem a fairly powerful cornerstone, isn't it?

[mostly willing]

while the 3 camp bps is strong, 300 resource node charges is a lot and the debuff is pretty bad. if you pick the cornerstone y2 you probably won't get rid of the debuff till y5-6. ideally what you want to do when you pick it is find enough charges in stonecutter or harvester camp nodes, build as many corresponding camps as you can, and stuff them to clear the debuff in 1 year or so. if you can't do that, you are stuck with camps that have lower gathering speed than the small camps, by a wide margin. the cornerstone is a good pick only if you absolutely need access to big nodes or you are in a position to get rid of the debuff quickly.

[BT]

That makes sense, 300 nodes is alot with a low population indeed

[arjensmit79]

I havent used it since they changed it from where you could just delete 10 small nodes. But if i recall correctly, the gathering speed of the large camp with debuff was only a fraction lower than small camps ?

Not sure though, and even if it is only a fraction slower than small camps, small camps are fricking slow and it blocks you from getting a proper large camp at full speed now even if you'd have 1 of them seperately. 300 is just too much. I dont really see gathering stones or reed as a solution because you just dont need that much of those, so you'd only be doing it to get rid of the debuff. This probably wastes even more manpower as you would just gathering the stuff you need.

Since all you need is 2-3 large nodes of some food source, i think you are now much better off just picking the normal blueprint for a single type of food if you can.

So i'd say this thing is nerfed from "really nice" to "absolutely awful." At 100 gatherings to remove the debuf, it would still not be OP.
Of course if this is your only way to get access to raw food, you must. Or if you are trying to do a city builder thing where you continue after victory with the intent to colonize the whole map, then this is great.

[mostly willing]

Originally posted by arjensmit79:

if i recall correctly, the gathering speed of the large camp with debuff is only a fraction below that of a small camp. Meaning, you don't really lose anything when you pick the blueprint compared to using small camps.

it's 25 seconds base per gather for a small camp and 36 for a big camp with the debuff. ~29 harvests per year vs ~21 per year if you exclude hauling and villager travel time. not what I'd call fractional difference.

[mk11]

Originally posted by a mostly willing son:

Originally posted by arjensmit79:

if i recall correctly, the gathering speed of the large camp with debuff is only a fraction below that of a small camp. Meaning, you don't really lose anything when you pick the blueprint compared to using small camps.

it's 25 seconds base per gather for a small camp and 36 for a big camp with the debuff. ~29 harvests per year vs ~21 per year if you exclude hauling and villager travel time. not what I'd call fractional difference.

But you also get more of the incidentals if it gives you access to use Large Nodes

[mostly willing]

Originally posted by mk11:

But you also get more of the incidentals if it gives you access to use Large Nodes

there is no disagreement on this point

[alation13]

I actually quite like it as a choice, when you first look at your harvesters, it seems like a lot, but considering the large nodes have 70 or so charges, it is pretty much just 4 nodes of reduced time.

[Samseng Yik]

A question about this corner stone.
Mining coal and copper will not count towards it?

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by Samseng Yik:

A question about this corner stone.
Mining coal and copper will not count towards it?

No as they are camps not mines:)(Unless you get say copper from the clay field)

It is actually a pretty good cornerstone. Yes it reduces your camp gain until you gather 300 resources(beside woodcutters), but that allows you to gain 3 blueprints, so higher chance for something useful to obtain. Also the traders will not sell these anymore so they can sell something different as a perk. Not to mention it allows you access to large nodes.
All in all the tradeoff is very much worth it.

[马小褂]

i would agree with arjensmit79, it was one of the best cornerstones and now its pretty awful after the "nerf". yes it does allow you to access big nodes, but the -50% gathering speed is HUGE.

even if you're in a desperate situation of running out of food nodes, its still just better to open up small glades and gather those small nodes. or, you can just focus on big stone/clay nodes, since they offer roots as byproducts as well. fun fact, its actually more effective to gather food on stones than small modes with small camps.

master blueprints makes stonecutters camp so much slower, i just dont think it helps with food situation. slower gathering for sea marrow which is the best fuel in the game, slower gathering for stones which can be used to open caches and solve your food issue, and slower gathering for copper ores from stone/clay nodes, all these make your game progress so much slower. at p20 you basically have to win before y8 or so (unless you're using human as firekeeper) and if a cornerstone gives a strong debuff that lasts for like 6 years and only becomes positive after that, its just awful.

i still take it sometimes tho, but not really for the 3 advanced camps. on the contray, i would take it on y4. at that point i basically dont care about gathering speed at all and just want to rush to victory. in this case, it can get those blueprints out of the pool which gives me higher chance to get service buildings to finish off the settlement.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by 马小褂:

i would agree with arjensmit79, it was one of the best cornerstones and now its pretty awful after the "nerf". yes it does allow you to access big nodes, but the -50% gathering speed is HUGE.

even if you're in a desperate situation of running out of food nodes, its still just better to open up small glades and gather those small nodes. or, you can just focus on big stone/clay nodes, since they offer roots as byproducts as well. fun fact, its actually more effective to gather food on stones than small modes with small camps.

master blueprints makes stonecutters camp so much slower, i just dont think it helps with food situation. slower gathering for sea marrow which is the best fuel in the game, slower gathering for stones which can be used to open caches and solve your food issue, and slower gathering for copper ores from stone/clay nodes, all these make your game progress so much slower. at p20 you basically have to win before y8 or so (unless you're using human as firekeeper) and if a cornerstone gives a strong debuff that lasts for like 6 years and only becomes positive after that, its just awful.

i still take it sometimes tho, but not really for the 3 advanced camps. on the contray, i would take it on y4. at that point i basically dont care about gathering speed at all and just want to rush to victory. in this case, it can get those blueprints out of the pool which gives me higher chance to get service buildings to finish off the settlement.

Unless there is no food in the small glades:( When you find that good old marrow and a digger you know you have issues:) Or a totem and say..clay and so on. Sadly small glades are not always food, i had a game where the nearby 5 glades had no food but 1 of them had fertile land, just no blueprint for it for...8 years. (When a trader sold it.) But yes such scenarios are very very rare.

Also about P20. Frequent caravans COMPLETELY stops your impatience gain. So it is manageable without humans. Though again RNG or luck are needed.

[BT]

I never thought of taking this blueprint to remove the camps from the rolls

[马小褂]

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

Unless there is no food in the small glades:( When you find that good old marrow and a digger you know you have issues:) Or a totem and say..clay and so on. Sadly small glades are not always food, i had a game where the nearby 5 glades had no food but 1 of them had fertile land, just no blueprint for it for...8 years. (When a trader sold it.) But yes such scenarios are very very rare.

NO. i would happily take sea marrows or clays over small nodes of roots/meat/whatever everyday.

this might be counter-intuitive, but stonecutters camp is actually better at producing food than any small camps. the math is quite simple here (if we're not considering the delivery time):

with small foragers camp, 25s per cycle on roots = 2.4 roots per minute.

with stonecutters camp, 5s per cycle on sea marrow = 15 sea marrow per minute which is way valueable than 2.4 roots in any situation. you could easily sell the sea marrow from the trade routes then buy food from the traders - even in the worst case, which is you directly sell sea marrow to the trader in exchange of food, you can still buy 6 roots with 15 sea marrow. this is way more effective than small camps.

then on stones/clays, 5s per cycle = 12 production cycle per minute, with 30% chance of getting roots, its 3.6 roots per minute, which is still better than 2.4 roots with small foragers camp.

this is why master blueprints is bad. if you are running out of food resources, just dig those sea marrow/clay/stone. master blueprints is not going to solve ur food situation, but by slowing your food production it often makes your situation even worse.

[arjensmit79]

While i totally agree with the gest of your message, you can however absolutely not ignore delivery time because it is way bigger than the actual 5s to cut stones or clay.

Still as i said, i agree with your message. The combination of food and other stuff you get makes it no worse than a small camp. Big camps are king though. Big camps without penalty that is.

Ok testing right now:
I ran for 8 minutes
-a stonecutters camp with 2 humans
-a small foragers camp with 2 humans
Both camps were touching the hearth and around 10 tiles from the warehouse (starting glade)
There was a human in the hearth.

The stonecutters gathered 40 charges of clay. With 2 guys for 8 minutes, that is 2.5 charges per minute.
The foragers gathered 24 charges of roots, with 2 guys for 8 minutes, that is 1.5 charges per minute.

Obviously it would be faster if the warehouse were closer and/or there were a harpy in the hearth. That test might come later. I am planning to do some extensive testing on small and large camps when i feel bored some day. (and then once i have gather times for all base goods, start filling out an excell sheet with time costs of all more advanced products as well)

[Grimelord82]

One of the common first 3 orders is a +1clay/+1stone production, which cuts the overall time in half. That exists as a for mushrooms, meat and wheat through the perk system too. I think those change the equation a bit. But as with a lot of things, it has to be stacked up appropriately.