Are rain engines worth it?

[Olleus]

What the title says essentially. Note that I'm not just interested in the optimal meta where almost all production is replaced by trading, but in a more "standard" strategy that engages more broadly with the game's economy.

I've tried to use them, but it really doesn't seem worth it. Pipes are pretty expensive to make - I'd rather save my ingots for tools. Extra production speed is good, but often I'm not maxed out in workers per building so it's easier to add an extra worker than to build an engine, a rain collector, and have someone work in the rain collector. Geysers with an automaton make up for that, but I'd often rather sell the pipes and wildfire. The extra resolve barely seems to matter in most situations, because it gets spread out amongst the whole population. Sometimes it might just make a difference, but is it worth the investment? Extra double production chance is good, but is it good enough to make it worth while?

The biggest drawback for me, is that it causes blights. They're not a huge problem, but it does require building a blight post, assigning workers and fuel to make purging fire, and then assigning workers during the storm to burn them. All of which takes more resources, time, and workers. It's just so much easier to ignore the whole thing. Even with the automatic cysts that come with P3, I can easily upgrade the hearths enough that it simply isn't an issue until the game is (almost) won, unless that annoying glade events turns up anyway. But when I've used rain engines I'm forced to engage with it far earlier.

All that to say, it seems like the whole rain engine and blights system is simply more hassle and cost to deal with than straight up ignore. That's not to say I don't see the benefits, just that they don't seem Collecting rain for porridge or other recipes is a slightly different matter. Am I missing the value here?

[harken23]

I'm still on lower difficulty, but I hardly use rain engines unless I need them (even without the blightrot problem), for the same reasons -- they tend to stretch out your limited ppl power.
I generally build one or two eventually, but really not until I have a geyser or two on line.

[Harwin]

If you're below P3, then you probably won't generate enough cysts to get over 100% corruption for a while, so you don't need the blightpost for quite some time, so I wouldn't consider that a big cost.

If you're at P3, then I'm surprised, with the storm length, the you don't get > 100% corruption from blight.

As for the rest...
At p3 you have enough pipes to do geyser+automaton+engine, at the cost of a hearth (you lose 1 of your 4 wildfire). But you mention selling your wildfire anyway.
At p6 you need 2 extra pipes for this, but you don't lose the wildfire anymore.

Wildfire sells for a couple of amber, but a 25% production bonus from the rain engine can easily be more than that. If you're making something high value, like packs of goods, then any double is huge. Luxury packs at P3, for instance, sell for 1.5 amber. A 25% chance improvement on doubling basically makes them about 1.85 amber. Make the recipe 10 times and you've gotten your wildfire money back. You've also spent less time with the worker doing it (50% production speed)

I don't know the optimal rain, but I usually set the left dial to 2, for bonus production. I rarely set it to 3, and rarely do the resolve bonus - unless that resolve is pushing me over a threshold (in which case it's great!)

But yeah, I think they're worth it (WITH a geyser)
Dunno about the rain collector versions though. Advanced rain collector is maybe worth it, but I wouldn't want to spend the BP on it(it was nice the one time I ever tried it though)

[arjensmit79]

I think they are worth using selectively. I once did the math if it is worth for example boosting a crude workstation and it was not really.

However, if you enhance the end of a more complicated production chain like Tools, Pie, Biscuits and use the middle setting with 25% chance for double production, that effectively enhances the entire chain. I have not done math on this, but i believe that is very much worth it.

I only ever do it with a geyser though.

[Olleus]

At P3 as long as the ancient Hearth has at least the first upgrade, then the 5 cysts generated in Clearance III won't take you over the 100% limit. The duration of the storm has no effect AFAIK. When 5 more cysts appear at Clearance VI then it will take me over the limit, although multiple hearths with multiple upgrades each might prevent at. That late in the game however, I've either already won, or am about to and the resources to deal with blight are far more readily available than in the first few years of the settlement.

[Harwin]

Originally posted by Olleus:

At P3 as long as the ancient Hearth has at least the first upgrade, then the 5 cysts generated in Clearance III won't take you over the 100% limit. The duration of the storm has no effect AFAIK. When 5 more cysts appear at Clearance VI then it will take me over the limit, although multiple hearths with multiple upgrades each might prevent at. That late in the game however, I've either already won, or am about to and the resources to deal with blight are far more readily available than in the first few years of the settlement.

Huh, surprised me. It's been a long time since I played P3 (it's not a breakpoint on seal rewards so I usually pick p2 or p11 assuming the goal doesn't have to be higher)
On P11 it's 10 cysts for >300% so there's no way around a blightpost (unless you're going to win on Y3 I suppose)

Thanks for the correction/clarification.

[mostly willing]

Originally posted by Olleus:

The biggest drawback for me, is that it causes blights. They're not a huge problem, but it does require building a blight post, assigning workers and fuel to make purging fire, and then assigning workers during the storm to burn them. All of which takes more resources, time, and workers. It's just so much easier to ignore the whole thing. Even with the automatic cysts that come with P3, I can easily upgrade the hearths enough that it simply isn't an issue until the game is (almost) won, unless that annoying glade events turns up anyway. But when I've used rain engines I'm forced to engage with it far earlier.

are you playing above p3 but below p11? if you don't build a blight post y3 post p11, your settlement is dead. what's the "far earlier" in this context? y2?
rainpunk is very good. complex food production should always be piped if you have a geyser. tools, metal and trade packs production should ideally be piped, too. early piped workshop trivializes building mats. blight doesn't come close to outweighing 50% prodrate and 25% prodcrit. and I haven't even talked about saunas.

[Olleus]

I haven't reclimbed up to P11 yet. On P3 you can absolutely ignore blight until Year VI, provided that you don't use rain engines. If you do use them before Storm III, however, then you do need the blight post by then.

[mostly willing]

I don't see your point then. it is viable to ignore blight before p3 completely, and up to y6 storm between p3 and p11. at any point after that you are going to build the blight post regardless, so your main point of not building the blight post is not valid - might as well use rainpunk
still, building a blight post and fuel is a small price to pay for rainpunk imo

[Olleus]

Originally posted by a mostly willing son:

I don't see your point then. it is viable to ignore blight before p3 completely, and up to y6 storm between p3 and p11. at any point after that you are going to build the blight post regardless, so your main point of not building the blight post is not valid - might as well use rainpunk
still, building a blight post and fuel is a small price to pay for rainpunk imo

But I win before Storm VI almost all the time on those difficulties, so I can ignore it completely. But even if I don't, there's a big difference between having to invest in a blight post plus fuel plus worker time in Clearance VI, and having to do it in Clearance III (or as soon as the first rain engine comes online after that).

[Olleus]

Originally posted by arjensmit79:

I think they are worth using selectively. I once did the math if it is worth for example boosting a crude workstation and it was not really.

However, if you enhance the end of a more complicated production chain like Tools, Pie, Biscuits and use the middle setting with 25% chance for double production, that effectively enhances the entire chain. I have not done math on this, but i believe that is very much worth it.

I only ever do it with a geyser though.

Yeah, that makes sense. Do you use a worker in a Geyser, or an automaton? I find the latter very useful because Geysers might not be near the hearth or connected to my roads so any villager there wastes a lot of time.

[mostly willing]

Originally posted by Olleus:

But I win before Storm VI almost all the time on those difficulties, so I can ignore it completely. But even if I don't, there's a big difference between having to invest in a blight post plus fuel plus worker time in Clearance VI, and having to do it in Clearance III (or as soon as the first rain engine comes online after that).

sure. as I said, it sounds viable before p11

[el Darkness]

I do not know how it currently works resource wise, but I used to pipe 2 buildings to a geyser pump (or 2). I am pretty sure that you have enough mats to make a pump and pipe 2 buildings to it. Of course I prefer pump with automaton. Most commonly I piped rain water to food production to remove some strain in this area.

[Spacesuit Spiff]

It's not good value on paper, but can give flexibility where you need it. If you're relying heavily on one complex food, for example. Double production chance is also multiplicative along a supply chain, so if you water eg copper bar and tools that can get pretty big

[arjensmit79]

Originally posted by Olleus:

Yeah, that makes sense. Do you use a worker in a Geyser, or an automaton? I find the latter very useful because Geysers might not be near the hearth or connected to my roads so any villager there wastes a lot of time.

I use automation if i can. I try to pick orders that reward me with a fire essence. I want 2 hearths first, then an extra 1 or 2 to automate geysers. In the rare case i can't automate it, i will still use the geyser, but it might be a little later if i'm too strapped for workforce.

Have to say, i am now playing P6 and this creates the same doubt you describe. Blight can be ignored entirely if you use no water, so the use of water comes at the extra cost of having to burn. I still do it though and usually burn only 1 storm, then disassemble the blight post again.

[Lil brekky]

rainpunk is very nice for buildings with limited staff slots, as it sort of works out to be another 0.5-0.75 of a worker without having to pay buildmats for a whole extra building. workshop as mentioned is a standout here, and food production more generally. I tend to favour engines in those odd buildings that produce a mix of resources - it just *feels* nice and exploity to pump greenwater into something that isn't food.

rainpunk also unlocks another layer of resolve manipulation - extremely good for the early resolve-based timed orders. in fact these timed orders are the main argument for building a rain collector year 1.

trivial case: on cursed woodlands, yellow water (ew) can be used to pay for ghost chests