Overall most useful race (Discussion)

[Talon Rose]

HOY.

Basically, what do you think is a cornerstone species, and why?
We all know Harpies are great in hearths and we know why, or that having humans in farms is neat for that potential double yield, but I think the real MVP class in this game is the Beaver clan.

Wood is your basic starting block. It builds the basic stuff you need, refines into moderate stuff you *must* use, it is used in trade for slight padding, for fuel, for bonus fuel.
Beavers being able to some times get double wood is pretty good in my eyes. While they're arguably not too useful for much else, them being really helpful with such a core thing is what makes them the most useful race in my eyes.

Optional bonus discussion : "Worst" race and why?

[arjensmit79]

There is however one thing i got from this thread that i never really considered and that is the time between breaks. That is quite a major thing indeed and im going to try and pay attention to that and this breakpoint you speak about in my games.

And as explained and quantified by Clawyer, it might in fact be one of the major factors for race comparison. Maybe the foxes and lizards should have this swapped to make the races more balanced ?

[Clawyer]

The problem with the breakpoints is that you have to factor in everything, from the time it takes to moving from the hearth to the workplace, the question if new material is needed - and how long it takes to get that material - up to the odd chance of double production prolonging the time to deliver goods. All these can and will change the time it takes until a villager goes to rest again. Some of the longest recipes take more than 2 minutes so it doesn't matter which species works on it. And if the production time is short enough it might not matter (~ 50 seconds - 1 minute 20). But if you then reduce the working time again it starts to matter again as 45 seconds done twice means the lizard goes to rest but the human works a third shift.

All in all it is just something I noticed with recipes that take slightly more than 1.5 minutes, where the lizard in the building would never be available for delivery right after work but the beaver/human/fox might.

[Dunal]

Messaggio originale di arjensmit79:

Messaggio originale di Dunal:

If I'm looking at data from my own games (at P20)

LIttle side note: I dont need to know how much you play to think your sample size is going to be waaaaay to small to have any meaning at all in this way. Its been a long time since i was involved in statistics playing poker for a living, but let me give it a try. Someone correct me if i'm doing this wrong.

Fair enough that the sample size is not going to be very large at all. Part of it is also us just an observation or in-game feel of why the results were received. Though I have to be aware of other factors that could skew the results (biome, cornerstones, modifiers etc...).

12/14 Y5 wins have either beaver/lizard as bulk population (Humans having 2/14 and are present in all Y7 clears recently). However, I'd certainly have to play a lot more games (or combine with other people's data) to come to a better conclusion, but some early findings are at least interesting (Lizard!Marshlands is 6/6 for a Y5 clear, which is a very small sample size for sure, but does stand out at least). Humans also being last just makes sense for me in theory, but who knows if it's placebo effect at this point (does knowledge of having humans during my run make me play worse by association? For example, ignoring their innate in some games could be optimal when I never really do. Such as picking a farm blueprint asap or at embark even when not optimal... which may not necessarily be to do with humans themselves, just how I choose to play when they're present).

Might be that available species mean very little compared to other variables that can affect a run. Difficult to say for sure. Beavers boosting trading (an extremely strong mechanic) is probably the only thing I have high confidence on. Many other things are circumstantial. Though I do suspect that production bonuses (crit-chance) likely matter very little in the grand scheme of things. For instance, I doubt Beavers as woodcutters is making a significant impact (best I can think of is dew bars within Coral Forest). Meanwhile things like rest intervals are complicated (Lizard/Harpy's increased frequency is highly dependant on their production cycles, distance to hearth etc...).

Messaggio originale di 马小褂:

Sealed Forest upgrade also heavily favors a slow and steady style which means humans are way better than lizards/harpies for the new biome.

Could hold true in theory. Definitely need to play a lot more to get a feel for it.

[KD.AltQQ]

Messaggio originale di Clawyer:

I would take lizards with harpies over lizards with foxes. They have way more synergy!
Harpies and foxes have only one shared need: Cosmetics. And that comes into play very late so you have to either get specific buildings that offer complex food for both (and I am not talking about the soup kitchen here, it's doable but sooo time and resource consuming >.<) or use a lot of global resolve.
Buildings that come to mind are the butcher (with both recipes fighting for resources), the cellar (1 star.. needs containers.. meh) or the cookhouse (which needs some way to get flour first).

I am not saying it's not doable, but lizards and harpies can both be buffed resolve-wise with a smaller amount of blueprints.

It's been tea instead of cosmetics for a while now :)

Strangely enough, I tend to divide the races into the "flour" core and the "pickles" core.

There is actually a huge difference between happening to stumble onto lizards and harpies when you reveal all 3 races after the first wave of newcomers. and having them show up as the two races in your starting caravan.

If I have a settlement with only 5 lizards for example, I can put them all on hearths and fire buildings and be much easier off. If I only have a few harpies (ideally I just want ONE early on, on the hearth) then the starting coats will keep them happy for a very long time.

If however, I have a settlement that is guaranteed to be PREDOMINANTLY lizards and harpies because they are the two races in the starting caravan... OY. Complex food just evaporates, production speed is slower, and everyone starts panicking if the map or world event modifiers are particularly nasty. For example, something as easy as the thunderbird egg (-2 resolve during storm for a few games) becomes VERY annoying with those two. Not to mention "cursed" from destroying the hearth.

Not to mention things like ancient battleground, etc. we NEED those reserve embarkation points for the new sealed forest!

[Hariman]

All races are useful, and it's the combinations of races that are bad in my view.

Bad combinations are:
Harpies and Lizards.
Humans and Beavers.

The first has too little in common with each other, and the latter makes it hard to build up to getting Resolve/Reputation quickly, leaving the third species carrying a LOT of a burden, so with bad luck on the orders, it's really hard to get started.

[Samseng Yik]

I don't want to say any race is OP.
But it is "some race" need a buff.
I had seen enough developer nerf player current option.
They should consider buff the least favorite option

[Clawyer]

Messaggio originale di KD.AltQQ:

It's been tea instead of cosmetics for a while now :)

Oops.. While writing this post I have looked into the game, seen it, wanted to change it... and forgot xD

I do also divide my gameplan into "I need flour" and "I need containers". There are some games where I use neither, but pickled goods with the +8 are SO strong I tend to try and get them if they are reasonable.
Harpies, Foxes and Humans in the same settlement often leads to me using meat for Jerky and vegetables for porridge. Things were so much easier when Humans still ate Jerky .. :D

[Talon Rose]

For those interested, I think the game's tvtropes.org page could use some updating .
Especially because versus what I read in this thread, there seems to be some ..let's say "incorrect" information presented.
Copy-pasting this about the Foxes from the tvtropes page :

Fox Folk: The final species unlocked, Foxes specialize in Scouting to complete Glade Events more quickly, and enjoy working with Rainwater. They have the lowest base Resolve of any species, and are the hardest to please, as Rainwater buildings are difficult to buildnote The buildings are Essential, meaning they're always available to build, but Rainwater only boosts other buildings without contributing anything directly, and their preferences generally require more infrastructure that you just might not havenote Foxes like complex baked goods, requiring farms, mills and bakery type buildings, Brawling, which requires difficult-to-produce Training Weapons and the appropriate service building, and Treatment, which requires expensive Tea and the appropriate service building. They are notably not affected by Clothing like the Harpies, or warm buildings like the Lizards, making them incredibly fickle. They also are massively susceptible to hunger, taking more Resolve penalties from it than any other species, but unlike the others won't suffer from global Hostility resolve penalties.
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HMMMM though, y'Know?

[Clawyer]

The info about baked goods is definitely wrong.
Foxes eat skewers, pickled goods and porridge. Foxes ARE susceptible to hunger but not by having higher resolve loss but by dying when missing a third meal.

The stuff about rainwater buildings is also not true. First of all I would say that it's questionable logic to think about the specialisation as a way to buff resolve as at least in a large group of one species you will have a "global" resolve modifier of +0 due to having +5 on two or three villagers not being enough to push the overall resolve. And then they are already saying that any rainwater building is a core blueprint. You can also get a few production buildings like the tea house that make foxes happy.

Yes, you are right, it needs updating.

[Slatepaws]

Messaggio originale di Talon Rose:

For those interested, I think the game's tvtropes.org page could use some updating .
Especially because versus what I read in this thread, there seems to be some ..let's say "incorrect" information presented.
Copy-pasting this about the Foxes from the tvtropes page :

Fox Folk: The final species unlocked, Foxes specialize in Scouting to complete Glade Events more quickly, and enjoy working with Rainwater. They have the lowest base Resolve of any species, and are the hardest to please, as Rainwater buildings are difficult to buildnote The buildings are Essential, meaning they're always available to build, but Rainwater only boosts other buildings without contributing anything directly, and their preferences generally require more infrastructure that you just might not havenote Foxes like complex baked goods, requiring farms, mills and bakery type buildings, Brawling, which requires difficult-to-produce Training Weapons and the appropriate service building, and Treatment, which requires expensive Tea and the appropriate service building. They are notably not affected by Clothing like the Harpies, or warm buildings like the Lizards, making them incredibly fickle. They also are massively susceptible to hunger, taking more Resolve penalties from it than any other species, but unlike the others won't suffer from global Hostility resolve penalties.
------------------------------------------------

HMMMM though, y'Know?

Not my experience, they're extremely easy to please, usually the first if not only race to go blue bar. Having them to me is a requirement of having a chance to win on vet or above.

[Lucky_Star_Fan]

Humans. Take the longest to break, help support the weaker races early game and in hard times. You're going to have 3 races, it's less about having the one which gains you most rep or works on X the best/fastest, but rather which one can shoulder the abuse when you favor the other two. Who can go without their favorite food, specialized housing and substandard work location the longest?

I am never unhappy with my humans and they are never why I lose. Every other race has let me down at least once.

[Hariman]

Messaggio originale di Lucky_Star_Fan:

Humans. Take the longest to break, help support the weaker races early game and in hard times. You're going to have 3 races, it's less about having the one which gains you most rep or works on X the best/fastest, but rather which one can shoulder the abuse when you favor the other two. Who can go without their favorite food, specialized housing and substandard work location the longest?

I am never unhappy with my humans and they are never why I lose. Every other race has let me down at least once.

I've had a similar experience with Lizards, because they can tank low resolve the longest, if you have at least one complex food running.

But that's also of limited use in later difficulties, and after the Viceroy Storm changes.

[darktoto]

My rank is :

-Human : i'm not a rusher so their heart reputation bonus is a godsent ! Also their ability to find fertile soil (and cultivate it) is huge to rank up a stable complex food strategy. Super resilient moral as well, just a pillar.

- Beavers : just the sheer bonus in wood and overall manufacturing, it's the "simpleton" race, just pure industry. Goods -> trade -> merchants -> profit. Pretty ok for moral

- Foxes : very useful for rain economy but in higher diffculties rain can murder you so i try to avoid until i can manufacture coal (else you'll spend everygain in blist management). They don't suffer from hostility gain so very useful for rep gain as well

- Lizards : overall interesting for coal production and other hot places, nice meat bonus and early on lil' bit of moral boost in heart so it can give you that little edge early on. Part from that "meh"

- Harpies : i could never understand what that race has going for it. Super fragile, no bonuses, definitely lowest tier for me

[RamboRusina]

1) Beavers. Easy to keep neutral with zero effort and helps the most in early to mid game getting you foundation of the colony. Great production bonuses(crystal dew farm also which is great resource to use/sell).

2) Foxes. Advanced races are easy to please early for few extra points. Event speed is fantastic boon to have. Don't really care much about them beyond that. Crystal dew as house material is kinda azz, but not that big of a problem overall.

3) Lizards. Great secondary race for food related stuff and making/digging coal. Easiest base race to satisfy and they don't need coats which goes well with foxes in that regard.

4) Harpies. Awesome hearth keeper bonus. Easy to satisfy early since they are advanced race for few extra points. The most demanding race mid game to satisfy(which makes them riskiest also) and frankly they want too slow pace of game.

5) Hoomans. Yuck. Slow and steady. Unlucky with fertile land or with blueprints and they feel so bloody awful race to have. At high prestiges they started feel so unreliable race that I'd actively avoid caravans with them unless only they had beavers in them(or map had high fertility). It has the same potential as beaver to make you great foundation, but it just comes at way higher risk factor to realize it.

[Nori]

I'll have to look at harpy's more, but generally they are my least favorite. I tend to prefer beavers, foxes and lizards.

Beavers because wood is always important and their homes just require wood. They can also save fuel in hearth if needed.

Foxes because they are great at glade events. They seem reasonably easy to keep happy too.

Lizard's resolve drops slower which is nice, they pair well with foxes because of brawling. I usually have trapping and always have cooking and they are good at those.


Humans are fine. Not really good or bad at anything.
Harpies I do not like. They have some decent bonuses, but most of them come later in the game imo and they are hard to keep happy early on.