Against the Storm

Against the Storm

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AlexGK Aug 26, 2023 @ 1:42am
Most OP and most useless blueprint
What blueprint do you consider the most broken (autopick) and most useless?
You can name more than one. Starter building excluded.

For me the most OP is the plantation. Two very usefull ressources at 2 star. I try to start with it whenever possible.

The most useless has been the herb garden. I only consider it if a trader offers it. And even that just to eliminate the chance for it to apper as a choice later :/ Whenever I use it, I never notice any particular benefit. Is it better than no farm blueprint at all (as a first farm choice offered)? Probably...
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Showing 16-30 of 53 comments
Icemind Aug 26, 2023 @ 7:31pm 
Never thought i would read any honest hate on the herb garden ^^

Most useful: Lumber Mill
Planks are so ubiquitously used that having them on efficient (and quick) production makes just a monumental difference. But the beauty of the lumber mill does not stop there since it also provides recipes for trade goods, giving you access early to some extremely profitable trade routes, and later guarantes access to scrolls, the one luxury good shared by the two races with the lowest decadence stat (harpies and beavers). (aside from that also one of the easier to produce luxury goods, in case you want to use them for packs or events)
Oh and to round it out it comes with extra double production chances for one of better races.

Least useful: Artisan
Only recipes you need so rarely that you usually just buy them, if you haven't covered them anyway and not even a 3 star recipe to have some efficiency as its saving grace.


---
Oh and on the farms: I actually consider the plantation as the lowest tier of the three ^^ (List would go Herb > Farm > Plantation, of course all of them are decent)
Yes it provides raw food, but one that can't be turned into flour, nor porridge.
Herb garden on the other hand provides ** recipe for one of the most flexible resources (useable in porridge, as ingredient in both of the flour based foods, for provision packs and as resource for crystalized dew production, for tea in those rare cases you need it, and in several glade events where you 'heal' as well)
The * can be used for flour production especially if you have an efficient one.
It unlocks the "Garden Life" order which, after being easy to do, comes with +1 root production, which is suprisingly powerful because just so many sources have roots as secondary gains. (Clay and stone, both with the wonderful 3 sec production time of the stonecutter camp, trees in the cursed forest, large flax fields, all of those suddenly turn into suprisingly efficient raw food providers)
Oh and it scales perfectly with the single strongest scaling cornerstone the game has. ("Spices", which has the large advantage over its competitors (like grain bags/ meat spec) that its scales off the end product instead of the primary production, enabling it to stack up much much faster.)

... but enough herb fanboying ^^
Last edited by Icemind; Aug 26, 2023 @ 7:32pm
Lil brekky Aug 26, 2023 @ 7:39pm 
I'd agree that the oil/sac feedback loop is absolutely nuts if you can keep supplying the mats. I have never, ever sac'd oil strategically. It is a "fat" play, increasing abundance of all things. It's a service building buff that doesn't require you to roll a service building!

I'm not seeing how seasonal access to ... fiber and berries wins the game on its own? Plantation is preferred because it has 2x 2* recipes, but no way to make baked goods. It's reasonably balanced, maybe better with harpies or a strong oil blueprint. By no means is it ever worth 2 extra embark points lmao.

Porridge, even 0* in the field kitchen, is by a long shot, the absolute best complex food recipe in the game, even with no preference for it, and I will die on that hill. 0 blueprints required, skips production stages, generates value from ever-available rainwater - with no time required to transport/deliver, either. Porridge probably needs a nerf across the board.

As to greenhouse - green geyser is fairly reliable to get with Foxes, not sure what you mean there. Even without, it's not a rare find at all - double-definitely not "very rare" - and year-round production is hard to beat.

Amber is not a high priority for glade tax because every map guarantees 10 Amber for rejecting your first purple cornerstone ;P
AlexGK Aug 26, 2023 @ 8:02pm 
Rejecting the first cornestone, what? The one you have rerolls for? The one that can win the game outright, if you reroll into a broken cornestone? I have to base my strategy around that? No way, I will not expand until trade if I have to, but not do that. Interesting take, though, I would have never tought of it :)
Starting with amber can also feed you a nice blueprint or trait come first trader as well.

For porrige, I need rainwater. I gave the raincollector enough chances. That building sux and its a complete waste to base my strategy around it. And for what even? At 0* it makes 8 food into 10 food with a low chance to proc double. Only doing it with early geyser, in my book.
I cook meat in my field kitchen :)

When ever did I miss ingredients for making backed foods when I have a flour recipe? Never. Those are always around - be it from starter goods, trees or camps later. The bottleneck for me was always flour.
Same goes for the blue bars. I do not remember missing ingredients outside of water when I get the blueprint. Not once.
While basic food is needed for jumpstarting trade and early survival. Its not comparable in my book.
Going into cornerstones - I had 50% plantation production last game. Insanity.
Last edited by AlexGK; Aug 26, 2023 @ 8:27pm
AlexGK Aug 26, 2023 @ 8:41pm 
Originally posted by Icemind:
Never thought i would read any honest hate on the herb garden ^^

Most useful: Lumber Mill
Planks are so ubiquitously used that having them on efficient (and quick) production makes just a monumental difference. But the beauty of the lumber mill does not stop there since it also provides recipes for trade goods, giving you access early to some extremely profitable trade routes, and later guarantes access to scrolls, the one luxury good shared by the two races with the lowest decadence stat (harpies and beavers). (aside from that also one of the easier to produce luxury goods, in case you want to use them for packs or events)
Oh and to round it out it comes with extra double production chances for one of better races.

Least useful: Artisan
Only recipes you need so rarely that you usually just buy them, if you haven't covered them anyway and not even a 3 star recipe to have some efficiency as its saving grace.
Artisan - fully agree, its crap.
Lumbermill - was my favorite building (love beaver too), but high prestige will you get it early over a smokehouse, butcher, cookhouse, beanery, even a smithy?
Last edited by AlexGK; Aug 26, 2023 @ 8:43pm
Lil brekky Aug 26, 2023 @ 8:47pm 
A lot of purple cornerstones are just not useful or relevant year 1. You should save your rerolls for the golden cornerstones on even-numbered years. Obviously there are some purples that set you off to a good start, but I'd never say it's game losing to take the cash and open 3+ glades with the cash - that's 2-4 embark points you could spend on something better than an overpriced plantation.

Maybe just a playstyle difference, but I build a raincollector along with my woodcutter camps before I even unpause and just stick 1 guy in there to stock up - good for engines, a few dangerous event solutions, and indeed porridge. The key with porridge is that it turns inedible foods (grain and herbs) into edible foods without needing to trade a blueprint pick and labour time to process it. It is so so good. 0* jerky recipe I do use sometimes, but less and less, as it wastes precious fuel.

I have lacked the side ingredients for baked goods in my p20 runs. it just happens sometimes. "Never" is factually inaccurate. Ditto for dew bars. It's just factually true that you don't always have access to each of the inputs.

50% production buffs exist for every farm, nothing special there.
AlexGK Aug 26, 2023 @ 8:59pm 
For plantation its special because you have two 2 star recipies to boost with the 50%.

I cant remember having the issue therefore it does not exist in my book. While indeed factually incorrect, it makes no difference in practice.

While I remember well some herb garden runs where i lived on roots because the game refused to give me flour or geysers.

Its definitely playstyle diff, mainly because I consider demolishing to full mats return gamebreakingly OP and refuse to do it. Therefore the raincollector is even worse for me.

I certainly hope the devs will someday acknowledge that and replace some of the harmless prestige modifiers with demolishing mats return penalty (at least 50%). But thats offtopic.

On the cornerstones though - reading you it looks like I have missed something. I thought the tier was completely random and rerols would also reroll the tier? If not what is the mechanic?
Last edited by AlexGK; Aug 26, 2023 @ 9:11pm
Lil brekky Aug 26, 2023 @ 9:09pm 
That's a good point about building refunding. That map modifier that refunds nothing on demolish makes for interesting decisions. I think another balance option there is to require work time to reclaim the mats. Even so, I tend to keep 1 basic rain collected staffed in 90%+ of games. having access to all 3 types, even at a low throughput, does come in handy.
arjensmit79 Aug 27, 2023 @ 1:41am 
I think the whole farm debate comes down to difficulty levels.

I think the plantation is best at high levels, where the challenge is to feed your people at all without it requiring all your people to be at it and you to continue opening glades to find more sources. Once your people are fed, the rest of the game is just a matter of patience as some win condition will come eventually while you are busy completing the orders and gaining more and more perks. And indeed, you find soil, and you have the plantation, that challenge is largely beaten for early game. ((you'll need more soil for a growing pop though)

The other farms need additional buildings. You can rely on getting those on low difficulty level, but not on higher ones. And i hope we can all agree the field kitchen is trash. The whole focus on advanced foods is not primarily to make our people happy, but to make more out of the food we have. Maybe we have only one patch of soil, producing 60 to 90 berries or grain per year, maybe we have only 3 large patches of whatever food we can gather with the camp blueprint we got to go with those patches. We need to make the maximum out of that food. And it would be very much appreciated if that happens at a worker efficiency that is at least in the same ballpark as the camp or farm itself. (30 food produced per worker per day). The field kitchen is so slow the workers are barely producing enough food to feed themselves.

This is also my problem with the whole oil thing. It needs food to be pressed into oil mostly. If i need 2-3 soil patches to feed my people and another 2 to food the oil press, thats 4-5 total. It's rather rare to have access to that many. (and yes oil is a very useful fuel, i use it regularly, but the context here was making the temple useful, and that would require you to be sacrificing oil near continuously, assuming you start saccing at year 4ish)
Last edited by arjensmit79; Aug 27, 2023 @ 1:53am
AlexGK Aug 27, 2023 @ 2:55am 
The field kitchen, being slow, is actually not that bad, considering the workers cant eat while working :D
So I put harpy or lizard there, they produce jerky, eat one or two jerky and produce 10 more while remaining happy and generating rep early game. So they definitely contribute to solving the food issue.
Also I always build 2 farms if the field has more than 9 patches. Needs a bit of micro every season, but 4 plantations on two patches (11 fields each on average) provide food and cloth mats for the whole colony for the whole game. I nearly always have berries remaining for service mats and food packs to boot.
Last edited by AlexGK; Aug 27, 2023 @ 3:02am
Lil brekky Aug 27, 2023 @ 4:12am 
Originally posted by arjensmit79:
And i hope we can all agree the field kitchen is trash.

unhinged statement
arjensmit79 Aug 27, 2023 @ 4:36am 
1 farm works 10 patches = 60 food per day.
So thats 30 food per worker per day.
As a rough guideline, everyone in your settlement eats about 10 food per day. (depends on many factors, this is a bit on the safe side, it should generally be in the 7-10 range)

So when eating berries straight from the farm, you'd need 1 farm for every 6 people and you'd have 30% of your pop farming berries.

With most patches being around 15 fields, it is good to put 2 farms there with 3 people total, and you'll feed about 10.

Now we rarely are forced to eat the raw berries, so lets have a look at some ways to increase the amount of food we get from farms.

Ranch increases 2 berries to 5 eggs, effectively producing +3 food. (and reducing the required farm fields by 60%). Including walking to the very nearby warehous, one person in the ranch needs about 90 seconds to do this, so thats 30 seconds per added food or 24 food per person per day.

The beanery turns 4 food into 10 porridge. 6 increase. It needs with movement about 120seconds for that, so 20 seconds per food, 3 per minute = 36 per day. Better. (We need water too, but that isnt so time costly if it comes out of a geyser)

The field kitchen produces 10 porridge from 8 base materials. A mere 2 extra. Whats worse is hat it needs about 3 minutes including transport to do this. 1 food per 1.5 minutes. Or 8 per day. Just enough to feed the worker itself. Totally and utterly horrible. Merely working hard to gain resolve but not really helping the quantitative food situation.

To put the food productions per worker per day in a neat list:

08: Field Kitchen porridge
15: * Farm recipe
24: Small Camp (plus more from secondary yield)
30: ** farm recipe
36: Normal camp (plus more from secondary yield)
36: Beanery porridge

All numbers are a bit approximations with transport time and breaks included, assuming hearth and warehouse are both nearby.
As far as i'm concerned:
-Ill take a camp over a **farm if i have enough large patches available
-The small camp is kinda meh but doable. We must use it when no other options are available.
-I ignore the 1* farm recipe's existence if its not enhanced to at least 5 by some perk
-The field kitchen is a joke.
Last edited by arjensmit79; Aug 27, 2023 @ 5:12am
AlexGK Aug 27, 2023 @ 5:38am 
What about the jerky from the field kitchen? Especially with harpy and/or Lizard/Fox? It nets you 4 food while reducing the overall consumption of the workers inside by nearly half. And it removes the jerky as a complex food you need to worry about lategame. Its a tier above the herb garden in my book :D
Last edited by AlexGK; Aug 27, 2023 @ 5:40am
Icemind Aug 27, 2023 @ 5:48am 
Originally posted by AlexGK:
Originally posted by Icemind:
...
Artisan - fully agree, its crap.
Lumbermill - was my favorite building (love beaver too), but high prestige will you get it early over a smokehouse, butcher, cookhouse, beanery, even a smithy?

Not having played anything other than P20 for 500 hours of playtime i have to say: yes ^^
Smokehouse is only great if you have guaranteed access to meat/insects: Not always a given and notably more likely on biomes with only one wood in the trees (Marsh/Coral) -> Making efficient use of that wood more important as well.
Butcher -> same thing.
Beanery: Needs a geyser, i'd never (ok almost never) want to run it off the base rain collector. If i don't have foxes nor one in the first glade ... things get iffy.
Smithy is a great blueprint ... but only after you have at least some of the things feeding it covered, which unfortunately is not guaranteed, so i would definitely first pick the lumber mill over it.

Thing is, you can get unlucky. I just had a game with the 'Swarm queen' event modifier (No orders and -50% Trader arrival speed (and yes P20 of course)) and didnt get a signle plank building, nor planks on my first five traders.
It is amazing how much plank scarcity can slow you down. Took a shockingly long time to finish that one.
So yeah i stand by my lumber mill ;)


-----
field kitchen is ... well trash and one of the most important buildings at the same time.
a) Going beyond just not starving, it just provides so many recipes, which might just give that important bit of resolve for the next storm. But more than that:
b) The key in my opinion is the second rain engine modifier. (Also the reason i rarely use it without rain engine)
Because yes, the base efficiency is horrid, but 25% bonus production is just such a big deal. Since you use no extra resources effectively you gain a production boost on all the steps leading up to it in the production line as well. Combining that with the recipe flexibility and ... all of the sudden the field kitchen becomes pretty damn important.
(Even though you might still hate it in the back of your mind for its terrible recipes ^^)


Edit:
Having the self imposed rule of "No demolishing for mat return" is quite interesting, that certainly changes a lot of things.
Personally i consider any game with someone leaving as a 'loss', but maybe i should steal your approach Alex, for some extra fun. :) It certainly makes a lot of situations a lot harder.
Last edited by Icemind; Aug 27, 2023 @ 6:01am
AlexGK Aug 27, 2023 @ 6:16am 
Yea, you convinced me, I will take early lumbermill next time if offered, especially if I have beaver. I was about to test if services (as they give more resolve than complex food) are not a better way to get early rep.
arjensmit79 Aug 27, 2023 @ 6:54am 
Originally posted by AlexGK:
What about the jerky from the field kitchen? Especially with harpy and/or Lizard/Fox? It nets you 4 food while reducing the overall consumption of the workers inside by nearly half. And it removes the jerky as a complex food you need to worry about lategame. Its a tier above the herb garden in my book :D

Oh that might be usefull. I was thinking in the context of comparing farms and using the fieldkitchen to make use of farms other than plantation to solve your early food needs.
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Date Posted: Aug 26, 2023 @ 1:42am
Posts: 53