Double storm on Viceroy difficulty

[TowerWizard]

What are your thoughts? Is it a good change, or should the devs reconsider this change?

[TowerWizard]

Oprindeligt skrevet af arjensmit79:

Hmm, thats not really what i experience.
I just finished p13 in my iron man run.

I am still talking about beginner players. You are obviously not.

[Hariman]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Lil brekky:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Thronin:

Springboarding into higher difficulties before having what I feel like are fundamental meta progress unlocks makes this all the more difficult, as I don't even have any of the species starting bonuses unlocked, nor anything past level 4 of the trading branch to really leverage for me.

Oprindeligt skrevet af TowerWizard:

So, while I understand that a longer storm is a buff in many ways, it is also hard to whether a four minute storm when not starting with cloth, not having unlocked rainpunk, or having the field kitchen. All negative forest mysteries being doubled (or tripled in some cases, like Rotten Rain) is another big thing.

I think it is the right decision to have a 4 minute storm on Viceroy, but I wonder when in the upgrade tree a new player is expected to play Viceroy.

These points highlight an issue with the game for discussions and for design. Having played a few profiles fully through the prestige and upgrade tree, they are poorly balanced. I think the game is significantly easier at P20 with all unlocks, than at say, P5 - or apparently even Viceroy now - with terrible unlocks. I'm taking a break from the game until full release, but I'm planning to start a new ironman profile run and I'm actually dreading the P5~P10 climb without unlocks, much more than I fear hitting P20 with all my species bonii, field kitchen, etc.

I think the unlocks need to come faster or more steadily.

I got all of the unlocks by playing a lot on lower difficulty levels, and only player higher prestige once I was close to having all the City Upgrades unlocked.

Honestly... you really do need to play with slower progression through the difficulties, and start on the lowest for a bit/build your way up.

[arjensmit79]

Oprindeligt skrevet af TowerWizard:

Oprindeligt skrevet af arjensmit79:

Hmm, thats not really what i experience.
I just finished p13 in my iron man run.

I am still talking about beginner players. You are obviously not.

Oh i thought you were saying that during an ironman run the first levels would be harder than the last. Rereading, i might have interpretted it wrong.

[Alcawen]

I hate it. If I could I would un-buy this game now, it took it from fun challenging to just stress inducing, and that's exactly what I don't want. At least make it an option to switch off or only allocate to 15+ prestige or something.

[Footen]

The thing is old players got to use the "crutch" of 2 minute storm and it allowed them to survive and gain experience and now they feel it's a benefit. New players lost their crutch and have to now learn what experienced players didn't have to learn in 15 difficulty levels. You have to learn to abuse game mechanics such as calling more traders then you need. You need to learn to build rain engines and juggle citizens into jobs that give them resolve.

It's just a lot of extra stress when you should be having fun learning the game and discovering those things naturally. But experienced players take their crutches for granted and think they're irrelevant as if they were always expert.

[Archgoose]

This discussion really sounds to me like a bunch of top tier players hand shaking each other and talking down to everyone that doesn't like this change. I suspect there's a silent majority that dislike the change but don't say anything because of discussion threads like this. I'm fine with P15+ players enjoying their brutal difficulty levels, if that's what you're into then you can have it, but I would say keep it there and out of Viceroy (or even P5 and below). And for those that say the change "teaches" players how to "properly" play the game, I find that tone very condescending. Not everyone wants to play P15 or above (personally the highest I've played so far is P5). I've played two games now since the longer storm and both were unsatisfying grinds. I personally hate the change, I find it has overall decreased my enjoyment of the game, and I hope they return it back to 2 minute storms.

[Clawyer]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Alcawen:

I hate it. If I could I would un-buy this game now, it took it from fun challenging to just stress inducing, and that's exactly what I don't want. At least make it an option to switch off or only allocate to 15+ prestige or something.

Please tell us where you run into problems? Do you lose a lot of villagers during the storm? If so, during which one?
Since a lot of more experienced players were saying that the longer storm makes things easier (me included) I would like to help you get back to not being stressed on Viceroy (if that's where you are at, difficutly wise).

[Clawyer]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Archgoose:

This discussion really sounds to me like a bunch of top tier players hand shaking each other and talking down to everyone that doesn't like this change. I suspect there's a silent majority that dislike the change but don't say anything because of discussion threads like this. I'm fine with P15+ players enjoying their brutal difficulty levels, if that's what you're into then you can have it, but I would say keep it there and out of Viceroy (or even P5 and below). And for those that say the change "teaches" players how to "properly" play the game, I find that tone very condescending. Not everyone wants to play P15 or above (personally the highest I've played so far is P5). I've played two games now since the longer storm and both were unsatisfying grinds. I personally hate the change, I find it has overall decreased my enjoyment of the game, and I hope they return it back to 2 minute storms.

I am sorry if you think that it's only the more experienced players confirming each other's views here. The change to the storm really did remove viable survival strategies for lower difficulties.

How did your games become grinds? The longer storm might make it necessary to remove woodcutters, which brings its own problems, so maybe we can give some hints to what building order post patch might help getting around the resolve problem? If it is a resolve problem at all?

[Lorska]

Honestly prestige levels are completely irrelevant for this. The order is almost completely arbitrary, and most prestige levels do absolutely nothing to impact your run, do saying only P15+ PC master race gamers are for the change is incredibly reductive.

I actually dislike playing above P4 (mostly because I find a lot of the modifiers between P5 and P14 boring or unfun). I still think it's a good change because the 2 minute storm duration trivializes storms just like the old favor juggling.
You could easily get through a storm without a single loss even with 2-3 species dipping below zero due to the time it takes to go down and favoring if things turn too bad.

I personally think that people saying that P20 is the "intend way to play" or the game is balanced around that are just talking bullcrap.
That should be the difficulty BEFORE prestige. But the storm duration of 4 minutes is so obviously what the game is built around with trader arrival times and blightrot that it was really silly that it was hidden behind high prestige.

Imo if your games suddenly change for the worse due to the storm duration, then the problem is that you simply played by ignoring the storm before. If not I really would like a tangible example of how things suddenly are worse that isn't:
"I can't ignore blightrot anymore" or "I can't let resolve drop below 0 anymore"...

[TowerWizard]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Archgoose:

I suspect there's a silent majority that dislike the change but don't say anything because of discussion threads like this.

I think so too. That is why I started this thread. I ultimately think, after having played a few games, and read some replies, that it is a good move for the game with a 4 minute storm on Viceroy. I have not played P15 or higher, by the way, so this is the first time I tried the longer storm.

However, what I think is needed, is that we keep the longer storm on Viceroy, but we put the increase in hostility from 2 to 3 in prestige levels instead. That makes players not interested in prestige levels experience the longer storm without it feeling like an overwhelming experience.

So, my concern is in line with what you are saying, that players may think the game too hard. It is the prestige levels that are supposed to be "extra" if the player wants a harder game. Viceroy is the "normal" difficulty, the way I see it.

[arjensmit79]

I actually kind of just now realize some people never experienced the 4 minute storm. I always considered it the standard.

As discussed plenty now, it has advantages and disadvantages. Those have played p15+ know both the advantages and the disadvantages. If you never experienced the 4 minute storm, it is logical that it takes time to get used to them and find out those advantages for yourself while getting used to deal with the disadvantages (indeed, no more "if i just favor this race the middle minute of the storm i might just get trough it or at most lose 1 guy"). I'm sure in time, everyone will start to appreciate it.

Somewhere in my absense btw, the change was made to implement a cooldown button on the race favoring ability. I think this was a much bigger thing than the 4 minute storm. I am wondering how the forum reacted to that at the time :)

[paigely]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Clawyer:

For all those people who are now hurt by the Viceroy double storm duration: You don't play Viceroy for fun. What's the worst that will happen on Viceroy? Some villagers leaving? Oh no!
I don't know about you, but when I play Viceroy (which I do for efficiencies sake, finishing 2 years earlier than on mid prestige) I usually finish with the bonus point modifier for not letting Impatience going over 2 or over 4. A few villagers leaving will not hurt you, it will probably even help you with your hostility problem. In most of my games Impatience is too low to impact hostility... This won't start to make me lose games.

I think this is a straight buff to Viceroy and lower prestige levels. Hostility is manageable for the first two to three storms unless you get some high modifiers from glade events or world map events. Most of the time I do not mind the storm, I am rather displeased that it ends before I manage to build that guaranteed farm for my Human villagers or before I finish the Trading post because I underestimated build times. In addition you now get a trader that arrives at your settlement at the start of the year instead of staggering towards the end of the year and then not appearing on year 5(?) unless called in exchange for impatience.

A strategy that probably doesn't work anymore might be to force a dangerous glade on year 1 while not being ready, clawing your way through the first 2 minute storm and hoping you can then finish the glade event with help from the first trader. Take care of your villagers! You now have even more time to prepare!

Well, I've been playing viceroy for quite a while, and I took a -2 to settlers challenge before the change. Now I can't seem to beat a level. I lose to many settlers due to the double because I can't get enough fuel to sacrifice. I'm very frustrated. Apparently my skills in the game are not high enough now.

[Lorska]

When are you starting to lose people? It'll take multiple years before you are in any danger due to hostility even without sacrificing.
Just building species houses and upgrading the first hearth once would keep you safe. Complex food adds another 1-2 years. Beavers and humans another 1-2. An additional hearth is about another year.

Unless you go mental on opening glades or bring hostility or -resolve events into the storm you should be fine.

When are you losing characters? Is it only lizards or harpies?

[arjensmit79]

Fuel to sacrifice ?
I never sacrifice one drop of it.

Surviving storm with only races that have 5 staring resolve:

Surviving storm year 1 & 2:
-Embark with 8 people minimum.
-Build housing for 8 people (+3 for resolve, 8 total)
-Build a park so you have an encampment. (+2 global resolve, 10 total)
-If needed, remove woodcutters until you are at hostility level 1 max.

Surviving subsequent storms:
-Be frugal in opening glades. I rarely need more than 3 dangerous ones and i rarely open anything else than dangerous glades. This means that during storms, you should never be higher than hostility level 2 in mid game and hostility level 3 in late game.
-Favor cornerstones that reduce hostility or give global resolve strongly
-Build hearths as many as you can fit and have the fire essences for. If you have good fuel supply, you can make them all encampments. (4 encampments = -120 hostility & +8 global resolve) If you dont have the fuel to feed them all, have some without any housing around them and only fire them up when needed for the -30 hostility.
-When you can, build the monastry, Guild House and Tavern.
-Put your people in jobs that make them happy. If needed during storm (or during your final resolve push for victor) even if they are jobs that don't need to be done.

If you want to see it in practice, search twitch my name without the number (or youtube arjensmit6684) and watch some streams, preferably the higher prestige ones. I think each of my P9+ video's show a pretty solid opening. The first 1 year of each video is pretty much identical and should set you up for a good game. What you should take away from it is the opening build order for year 1 and the way to make all choises and info come together so you can form a plan at start year 2.

[TowerWizard]

Oprindeligt skrevet af arjensmit79:

-Be frugal in opening glades. I rarely need more than 3 dangerous ones and i rarely open anything else than dangerous glades. This means that during storms, you should never be higher than hostility level 2 in mid game and hostility level 3 in late game.

I do the same.

I do consider this a weakness with the game. The player start surrounded by mostly small glades, that is basically a no-go zone on Viceroy and above, because of hostility. The best way to win is to find the nearest dangerous glade while avoiding the normal glades, and then do that two or three more times, never opening normal glades.

Is this what a beginner would do? Ignore all the supposedly easy glades and instead going for the hard ones before the end of the first Clearence? Of course not.

A beginner will open normal glades left and right. They have no evil events, so they are not harmful. Hostility is not a concern on difficulties below Viceroy anyway, so why not open small glades?

Then they try Viceroy, and suddenly small glades are the killers, with the dangerous glades the happy friends that help you win.

It is totally backwards. Normal glades should not increase hostility at all.

Oh, and Forbidden Glades are not worth it, and might as well not be in the game at all. The only time I open them is when they have the giant things in them, and sometimes not even then.