Against the Storm

Against the Storm

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TowerWizard Aug 17, 2023 @ 8:24am
Double storm on Viceroy difficulty
What are your thoughts? Is it a good change, or should the devs reconsider this change?
Last edited by TowerWizard; Aug 17, 2023 @ 8:24am
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Showing 1-15 of 108 comments
tymon2701 Aug 17, 2023 @ 8:54am 
Storm duration change seems like a massive difficulty increase for anyone who is not an avid prestige 15+ player
Spacesuit Spiff Aug 17, 2023 @ 9:33am 
I kinda liked how p15 suddenly made the blightrot percentage jump up massively. For new players that'll just be the default. But they're right about it basically being a straight buff so idk... move it to p2?
AlexGK Aug 17, 2023 @ 9:50am 
I always found that to be a buff when I got it on prestige. As long as everyne has a home by storm one, just balancing the woodcutters should be enough. Use that extra time to build stuff like extra houses for incoming pop or camp gathering.
Last edited by AlexGK; Aug 17, 2023 @ 9:51am
BinaryBrain Aug 17, 2023 @ 9:54am 
If the question/discussion is about moving the double storm duration down from P15 to Viceroy, I am not affected by this change so I cannot really contribute to this discussion.

But, if we talk about the increased length of storms from 2 to 4 minutes, well... I really like that storms take longer. Not only because it forces you to prepare better for it, i.e. feeling satisfied if a long storm is survived without casualties. I can follow the devs thoughts, it has not only downsides.

Each year is 2 minutes longer:
+ It is easier to fulfill timed world events, e.g. win before year X.
+ The +45 hostility gain each year is delayed, you stay longer in lower hostility numbers.
+ You can produce more goods per year, snowballing faster.
+ The trader arrives immediately after the storm*.

*Opening a dangerous/forbidden glade right after the storm ends is easier, a trader is there and you have 8 mins before next storm, which makes it easier to deal e.g. with +300 hostility during glade event.

When I look into my games, there are three cases during storm:
-> All species resolve stays >0 without my engagement. Does not matter if storm takes longer. If not:
-> Reduce amount of woodcutters until all species resolve is >0. If all woodcutters are dismissed and still <=0:
-> Place species into liked buildings, use rainpunk engines for +5 resolve, build species housing if still missing, etc. If still <=0:
-> Hopefully there is enough fuel. Sacrifice wood/coal to keep resolve >0, at least before someone leaves.
-> If still resolve <=0 or no fuel, well, then I played simply bad so far (see below).

To avoid everything going down during long storm (the last bullet point):
-> Look out for cornerstones/perks reducing hostility. If you get one, try to maximize its gain (e.g. trading extensively with Protected Trade cornerstone or going rainpunk with Baptism of Fire, etc.).
-> Avoid reducing impatience from the queen in the first years as much as possible (P14 helps here, each reputation point lowers impatience only by 0.5 instead of 1). Higher impatience means lower hostility. Especially if you got no hostility reduction yet.
-> Buy the "Way of the Forest" perk from traders (-50 hostility).
-> Do not open too many glades too quickly, even if it is a task. At least when you cannot handle the hostility yet.
-> Do not accept all villagers as fast as possible (except early game maybe). They increase hostility by a lot and are not helpful if you have not important work to do or to solve.

Maybe I forgot some... anyway.

After a bunch of games you should have a good feeling about hostility handling, i.e. when to safely open a glade, accept villagers, etc. You will never (or rarely) become surprised with a bad situation during storm where you are simply screwed.

Of course, if you play the game very relaxed, well... why did you play on Viceroy then? More resources from victory? I know it sounds rude, but maybe its better to stay on a lower difficulty for a more relaxed game. Or try to improve your tactics, the players on the forum really like to help :-)
Last edited by BinaryBrain; Aug 17, 2023 @ 9:55am
arjensmit79 Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:16am 
I agree with AlexGK entirely. Its a buff.

+You get more time in a year to do anything except woodcutting basically. (most notably maybe pumping water in the basic waterpump building, forgot its name)
+The trader will arrive right after the storm in the early years which is when you are opening glades and need him to increase your options in solving glade events.

On the downside is only that you really need to actually be able to get trough the storm. In a 2 minute storm you can just get trough by favoring one race, then another and maybe not lose any citizens like that, or limit the loss to only one. In a 4 minute storm you do need to make sure all your races stay positive, or you will be losing citizens.

For blight it doesn't matter too much. Yes in a 2 minute storm you can for example get away with burning just enough cysts to get below 100% on the hearth and let the other cysts be, but on a 4 minute storm you'll have to burn (almost) all of them. Besides that a 4 minute storm isn't going to cause more problems than a 2 minute one. If you can't keep up with the cyst burning, the problems arise in the first 2 minutes and are subdued already in the last 2.
Last edited by arjensmit79; Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:20am
TowerWizard Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:19am 
I should have made it clear that I don't mean how this change affects P20 players. I am mainly thinking about new players, that have not unlocked many upgrades. New players don't have rainpunk to help them, or have species housing either. They don't have many starting resources. My worry is that new players avoid viceroy and stay at lower difficulties for a longer time before taking the step up.

it depends a lot on what negative mysteries you get, too. "Increased threat" will have, well, increased threat now.

I also contest the idea that not much changes in viceroy from veteran: the multiplier for hostility goes from *2 to *3 which is a meaningful difficulty spike.
Last edited by TowerWizard; Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:20am
arjensmit79 Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:23am 
Originally posted by TowerWizard:
I should have made it clear that I don't mean how this change affects P20 players. I am mainly thinking about new players, that have not unlocked many upgrades. New players don't have rainpunk to help them, or have species housing either. They don't have many starting resources. My worry is that new players avoid viceroy and stay at lower difficulties for a longer time before taking the step up.

it depends a lot on what negative mysteries you get, too. "Increased threat" will have, well, increased threat now.

I also contest the idea that not much changes in viceroy from previous levels: the multiplier for hostility goes from *2 to *3 which is a meaningful difficulty spike.

Surely that difference between viceroy and lower is significant. However, and sorry if it sounds cocky, the game really is easy at P20. It is insanely easy at viceroy anyways. The game's problem really is being too easy because that is what allows players to think they are playing a general city builder and not having the fogiest clue what the game really is about. (I think the game would be better of if at low difficulty levels, the choise options were severely limited like they are on high difficulties, forcing the player to make do with what they get, but just giving the players more time)

And noone is talking about how it affects p20 players. Its just p20 players talking from their experience how 4 minute storms affect the game. What we say "the trader will be right after storm" for example, that very specifically is how it will affect sub p15 play. Obviously the only way it affects p20 players is that there will be a new handicap on p15 instead. And im indeed very curious to know what it will be.
Last edited by arjensmit79; Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:27am
Hariman Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:24am 
It's a double edged sword.

If you're in a bad place and you have no leeway/can't keep your species resolve up, you're going to lose a LOT of people, which is often hard to recover from.

But if you're not on the brink already, it's more time to do everything, as detailed above.
Hariman Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:26am 
Originally posted by arjensmit79:
I agree with AlexGK entirely. Its a buff.

+You get more time in a year to do anything except woodcutting basically. (most notably maybe pumping water in the basic waterpump building, forgot its name)
+The trader will arrive right after the storm in the early years which is when you are opening glades and need him to increase your options in solving glade events.

On the downside is only that you really need to actually be able to get trough the storm. In a 2 minute storm you can just get trough by favoring one race, then another and maybe not lose any citizens like that, or limit the loss to only one. In a 4 minute storm you do need to make sure all your races stay positive, or you will be losing citizens.

For blight it doesn't matter too much. Yes in a 2 minute storm you can for example get away with burning just enough cysts to get below 100% on the hearth and let the other cysts be, but on a 4 minute storm you'll have to burn (almost) all of them. Besides that a 4 minute storm isn't going to cause more problems than a 2 minute one. If you can't keep up with the cyst burning, the problems arise in the first 2 minutes and are subdued already in the last 2.

If you're desperate to burn a lot of cysts, or short staffed, a longer storm means you'll be more likely to get them all.

Especially if you're producing purging fire on the fly, during the storm.
TowerWizard Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:29am 
Originally posted by arjensmit79:
However, and sorry if it sounds cocky, the game really is easy at P20. It is insanely easy at viceroy anyways. The game's problem really is being too easy because that is what allows players to think they are playing a general city builder and not having the fogiest clue what the game really is about.

Do you mean easy if you have the entire tree unlocked, or easy if starting a new account? And do you mean easy for you, personally, having played it a lot, or do you mean easy for players just staring the game with no prior AtS experience?
Clawyer Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:30am 
For all those people who are now hurt by the Viceroy double storm duration: You don't play Viceroy for fun. What's the worst that will happen on Viceroy? Some villagers leaving? Oh no!
I don't know about you, but when I play Viceroy (which I do for efficiencies sake, finishing 2 years earlier than on mid prestige) I usually finish with the bonus point modifier for not letting Impatience going over 2 or over 4. A few villagers leaving will not hurt you, it will probably even help you with your hostility problem. In most of my games Impatience is too low to impact hostility... This won't start to make me lose games.

I think this is a straight buff to Viceroy and lower prestige levels. Hostility is manageable for the first two to three storms unless you get some high modifiers from glade events or world map events. Most of the time I do not mind the storm, I am rather displeased that it ends before I manage to build that guaranteed farm for my Human villagers or before I finish the Trading post because I underestimated build times. In addition you now get a trader that arrives at your settlement at the start of the year instead of staggering towards the end of the year and then not appearing on year 5(?) unless called in exchange for impatience.

A strategy that probably doesn't work anymore might be to force a dangerous glade on year 1 while not being ready, clawing your way through the first 2 minute storm and hoping you can then finish the glade event with help from the first trader. Take care of your villagers! You now have even more time to prepare!
Clawyer Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:35am 
Originally posted by TowerWizard:
Do you mean easy if you have the entire tree unlocked, or easy if starting a new account? And do you mean easy for you, personally, having played it a lot, or do you mean easy for players just staring the game with no prior AtS experience?

Upon starting a new account you will probably not play Viceroy right away. And if you do, you will be warned now, that the storm is longer. This change will not affect new players that much. Although it will teach them the importance of resolve buffing and woodcutter management.

The players affected by this change will be those that haven't played a lot yet and are trying to raise their difficulty level to Viceroy now, but those players will learn to cope.

The people really hurt by this change are those who play Viceroy without clear strategies for hostility mitigation or resolve management. You will not be able to just leave the hearth burning wood for the whole storm anymore as that is too expensive. I think those people will either learn to manage the longer storm and get to appreciate it or they will go back to playing Veteran. Which is way better suited for their playstyle anyways as hostility isn't as high but everything else is the same.
Last edited by Clawyer; Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:36am
arjensmit79 Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:56am 
Originally posted by TowerWizard:
Do you mean easy if you have the entire tree unlocked, or easy if starting a new account? And do you mean easy for you, personally, having played it a lot, or do you mean easy for players just staring the game with no prior AtS experience?

If you have no experience, you are not expected to start out at the highest difficulty available at that point. And if you do anyway you are expected to lose.

So i am talking about people who, like typical gamers, start out on settler or pioneer to learn the basics of the game and then, when they feel they have the basics down, start moving up the ladder, which may be after 5 games or 20 games, whatever suits them.

My own experience when i started this game was that i thought i was playing a city builder. I started out playing a handful of games on pioneer and then viceroy and was kind of dissapointed in the game. This stupid city builder wouldn't let me just build the nice city i wanted. I had to wait for the blueprints to come. Now that wasn't a problem per se, i would get those blueprints in the end and then i would build that pretty city. Then i moved up and it became harder to get those blueprints and then it started to dawn on me...... This wasn't a city builder at all !, this was a puzzle game. From that point onward, the game was easy even on higher difficulties and i climbed the ladder going up a notch every game without any trouble and not even having the entire tree unlocked (but still having much more unlocked than i would have in an ironman run because i played a bunch of games before starting the climb)

If the game wouldn't so easilly give you all those recipes you want. (in that "this is a city builder game" i was always looking to first get proper plank production secured) but immediately teach you to work with what you get, i think players would have less need for the lower difficulty levels and we would see fewer players here with complaints that obviously stem from a "this is a city builder" mindset.
Last edited by arjensmit79; Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:58am
Dunal Aug 17, 2023 @ 10:56am 
Originally posted by arjensmit79:
+The trader will arrive right after the storm in the early years which is when you are opening glades and need him to increase your options in solving glade events.
To add to this, it also allows you to call a trader during Y1 drizzle with the second arriving around the same time during Y2. With amber and/or provisions as embark bonus, you can open a dangerous glade super early while calling a trader (obtaining any resources required to clear it) without meaningfully delaying the second trader to help you further (either securing additional building materials or an extra blueprint). The extended storm just gives you additional time to expand into that glade and secure a strong production chain going into Y2 (perhaps complex food for a singular species to then favour and get some extra rep during the next drizzle/clearance).

I pretty much go this route in every P20 game and allows me to regularly finish in Y5 or 6. The longer storm allows that to be possible. Once you to adapt to it, it's much more of a benefit than a downside. For Y1 storm, just try and reach a level 1 hearth and keep hostility level below 2 and you should be fine. Beyond that, I often build a second hearth (upgrading to level 1) as early as Y2 storm (negates hostility from another dangerous glade and bumps up resolve a bit more, along with other benefits of expanding, such as faraway fertile soil you'd want a hearth to be closer to, or a large food node if you have Lizards).
AlexGK Aug 17, 2023 @ 11:39am 
You also have to understand losing people is not that bad in this game. Its more like emotional damage to the player, than a real one to the run. People are expendable in this game. They are free ressource. Losing them increases impatience and decreases hostility, and that in turn stabilizes the run. Worst case it prolongs the run by a year or two. Big deal. I have had runs where I lost 20+ people and still won without even being close to losing. Pre P20, obviously. Try actually playing the run till the end, not just giving up when things look bad. Most of the time it just looks bad and after the storm its all blue :)
I am surprised no one comments on the new prestige penalty, the decadence nerf. I need to test, but it looks like harpy and fox will be a lot worse now. They needed the nerf anyway, but this means resolve runs will probably take an extra year now.
Last edited by AlexGK; Aug 17, 2023 @ 11:46am
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Date Posted: Aug 17, 2023 @ 8:24am
Posts: 108