Why do hosts complain about invaders being toxic?

[Bzamo]

Most invaders I've run into seem to be overwhelmingly more chill than hosts. I'm just really confused about this because the majority of my experience as an invader is running into gank squads that spam annoying emotes and throw ♥♥♥♥ after spamming spells and weapon arts 3v1, but then every time I see a discussion about pvp online there are always pve players whining about how toxic invaders are. I can imagine there are probably annoying invaders out there (honestly not a huge amount in my experience with them), but does that seriously justify the overwhelming vitriol towards invaders in general? It is actually insane how many people will spend their entire nights sitting in one spot ganking over and over out of spite then go and complain about literally anyone else's behavior. It's not a just a few outliers. It's genuinely the majority of the people I run into while invading.

Is there something I'm missing about this or are these people just whining over nothing while acting worse than the most exaggerated version of the people they are complaining about?

[LuckyCheshire]

Rather than the actual invaders, a bigger issue is the underlying system of invasions. First, a lot of people don't expect invasions and/or are confused about why and when invasions are occurring. Second, there's a temptation to assume that the only reason someone would invade is pure malice, in particular since the only rewards for a successful invasion are completely negligible. Finally, invasions are designed in such a way that they often happen at strange and dumb times, like right before entering a boss arena, which generates frustration and irritation.

Basically people have a bad first impression and then have no incentive to change that impression by interacting with the system from the other end. There's also a bit of a feedback loop going now where "red man bad" has in essence become a meme.

[Gamerzilla]

That and you are kinda proving the stereotype is right by saying "people who spend their entire nights sitting in one spot ganking over and over out of spite then go and complain about literally anyone else's behavior. It's not a just a few outliers. It's genuinely the majority of the people I run into while invading." is everyone that isnt an invader and then complaining they are "whining over nothing while acting worse than the most exaggerated version of the people they are complaining about?" You are literally doing the thing you are saying they do...

[Papi_Teflon]

I can only think of one instance where an invader was being a pure jack **** is when they literally made another hunter and I go on a 10min high speed chase up to the Fort where you get one half of the Dectus Medallion in Limgrave. The guy just stood there at the top waiting until one of us got there so he could spam Wrath of gold until death. Either knowing the hunter would fall back down or the animation time frame from the ascend to actually being up would give him the advantage he needed to essentially merc one of us.

I guess I'm salty about it because I knew he was there but also knew I had to do something or he'd just be standing there till the cows came home. lol

Thinking about it now, that's one way to combat the gank squad. So in retrospect, he did his job exceptionally well hahaha

[yds]

I invaded for the first time today to complete Varre's quest. Two invasions I didn't find the host in time before they died to enemies they were fighting. One invasion the host ran away from me and caught me with a conveniently missing elevator (my fault, I admit).
That's my whole experience with Elden Ring invasions, lol. Good thing the quest doesn't depend on whether the invasion was successful or not.

[Flushing]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Bzamo:

Most invaders I've run into seem to be overwhelmingly more chill than hosts. I'm just really confused about this because the majority of my experience as an invader is running into gank squads that spam annoying emotes and throw ♥♥♥♥ after spamming spells and weapon arts 3v1, but then every time I see a discussion about pvp online there are always pve players whining about how toxic invaders are. I can imagine there are probably annoying invaders out there (honestly not a huge amount in my experience with them), but does that seriously justify the overwhelming vitriol towards invaders in general? It is actually insane how many people will spend their entire nights sitting in one spot ganking over and over out of spite then go and complain about literally anyone else's behavior. It's not a just a few outliers. It's genuinely the majority of the people I run into while invading.

Is there something I'm missing about this or are these people just whining over nothing while acting worse than the most exaggerated version of the people they are complaining about?

I typically lose 3 out of 4 times I am invaded.

I absolutely love it and have not encountered a Toxic invader.

I did encounter a Toxic Co-op player, who not only wouldn't help me with an invader but was purposely obstructing me to get me killed.

That was just a one off though.

Since Daemon Souls my pulse ramps up whenever I see "You have been invaded," I love it.

[Papi_Teflon]

One thing I wish we could do as Hunters is select which areas to not be summoned when an invasion happens. Because 9 times out of 10 for me, these invasions happen in Limgrave and I already know what to expect if an invasion is happening there. I want to help players not engage in PvP for the Hosts enjoyment. You wanna do that stuff do it in the Colosseum.

[Dragonirian]

Because they are bad at the game.
This has been the case for 16 years.
You invade - you "ruin my session" because they play it to feel good about themselves and stroke their egos and you shatter the illusion by your mere presence as a human being who is more skilled than they will ever be.

[Jnc]

Because of the lingering Dark Souls 2 Heide and Iron Keep invader trauma, please provide emotional support blue phantom.

[Bzamo]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Gamerzilla:

That and you are kinda proving the stereotype is right by saying "people who spend their entire nights sitting in one spot ganking over and over out of spite then go and complain about literally anyone else's behavior. It's not a just a few outliers. It's genuinely the majority of the people I run into while invading." is everyone that isnt an invader and then complaining they are "whining over nothing while acting worse than the most exaggerated version of the people they are complaining about?" You are literally doing the thing you are saying they do...

If you think I'm being hypocritical by complaining, here's the difference: I'm pointing out a very specific pattern of behavior that basically every person who regularly engages with the invasion system has to deal with, and I am genuinely curious what motivates that behavior. When I see pve players/hosts complaining about invaders online, the vast majority of the time all I see is vague mentions of "toxic" invaders with no real examples, often in an effort to justify basically any retaliation against invaders, up to and including full-blown griefing.

I believe that going out of your way to make invaders as miserable as possible with zero intention of engaging with the system as intended fits the definition of griefing, and the sheer frequency that this behavior occurs along with the systemic response from pve players saying that this is "deserved" tells me that there is a serious disconnect between the behavior that hosts expect from pvp players vs the standards they have for their own behavior.

If we want to talk about hypocrisy, there it is.

[Lynfinity]

Oprindeligt skrevet af LuckyCheshire:

...there's a temptation to assume that the only reason someone would invade is pure malice, in particular since the only rewards for a successful invasion are completely negligible.

Thread answer right here, OP.

A lot of the time, all this complaining doesn't stem from actual unpleasant interactions, but instead from a simple assumption that invaders engage with the system only to bully "unsuspecting" players because "why would you ever decide to interrupt someone's progress if you're not a sad and pathetic social reject?!?!"

And you know what they say about assumptions.

[Sc0rpiTr0n]

Blame developers.
It was predictable what would happen when you saddle co-op with invasions.

Obviously you will have some PvE players less than thrilled being invaded
and unable to play co-op without it so they will lash out on invaders.

PvP always had tendency to be toxic, especially when you create environment
with certain number of unwilling participants.

[Gamerzilla]

Oprindeligt skrevet af yds:

I invaded for the first time today to complete Varre's quest. Two invasions I didn't find the host in time before they died to enemies they were fighting. One invasion the host ran away from me and caught me with a conveniently missing elevator (my fault, I admit).
That's my whole experience with Elden Ring invasions, lol. Good thing the quest doesn't depend on whether the invasion was successful or not.

You never have to invade a player at all for this quest. An npc you invade a single time in Altus Plateau is enough to complete it. If you do invade players, you only need to load into the world. You can then just leave, and it counts. Still faster to just beat up that npc guy though, plus he drops lewt.

[Gamerzilla]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Bzamo:

I believe that going out of your way to make invaders as miserable as possible with zero intention of engaging with the system as intended fits the definition of griefing, and the sheer frequency that this behavior occurs along with the systemic response from pve players saying that this is "deserved" tells me that there is a serious disconnect between the behavior that hosts expect from pvp players vs the standards they have for their own behavior.

If we want to talk about hypocrisy, there it is.

Ok, lets say for the sake of argument that 70% of the hosts are waiting with a gank squad to kill you, the 'Invader'. Due to game design, it is a fact that 99% of invaders go to a hosts world with the intent to kill them, including those 30% that are not prepared. Does the host deserve to die any more than the invader? You SAY no, but when you die instead because the host prepared for you just as you prepared to go kill the host, you complain. That is hypocrisy. If you wanted a fair 1v1, you could do arenas. Instead, you prepared ahead of time, then invaded someone to go murder them on the way to a boss fight. No amount of 'well, its part of the game' changes that fact. You have options for fair pvp, but you choose invasions. You get everything you deserve when counter-ganked.

[Titan]

My reasoning is that these people don't like PVP in the first place and are sick of it being forced on them. Some people probably do think invaders themselves are toxic, but the system is kind of designed in a way where you're inclined not to think too highly of the invasion mechanic itself.

Think about it for a second. You're essentially breaking into someone's game with the intent of impeding their progress for no tangible reward. You're encouraged by how heavily one-sided it is against the invader to play like an arsehole, exploiting terrain and enemy placement to make up for the fact you're literally one guy against likely two or three (For example, literally EVERY SINGLE TIME I tried to co-op and help people through the final area of the DLC an invader showed up and would proceed to camp out around that stupid horned knight that freezes literally the entire rooftop, to the point I would seriously rather jump off the roof than deal with that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Seriously, it's already the most obnoxious area of the game, how can you feel good about invading there and making it worse?!). And you kind of have to tailor your build for PVP in a way that can feel frustrating for people who are just trying to play the game with friends.

[Titan]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dragonirian:

Because they are bad at the game.
This has been the case for 16 years.
You invade - you "ruin my session" because they play it to feel good about themselves and stroke their egos and you shatter the illusion by your mere presence as a human being who is more skilled than they will ever be.

Or maybe I just want to play the game without PVP being shoved down my throat. I suck at these sorts of games enough without some sweat making it worse.